1 00:00:06,344 --> 00:00:07,346 Hello, everyone. 2 00:00:07,346 --> 00:00:09,464 I'm Stacy Allison-Cassin. 3 00:00:09,464 --> 00:00:14,743 I'm a librarian at York University in Toronto, Canada. 4 00:00:14,743 --> 00:00:17,390 I'm really happy to be here with you all today. 5 00:00:18,990 --> 00:00:21,059 I'll just also say right off the top 6 00:00:21,059 --> 00:00:25,380 that I'm a citizen of the Métis Nation of Ontario, 7 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:28,796 which is a recognized Indigenous nation in Canada. 8 00:00:30,436 --> 00:00:34,824 Also, the talk today, I'm not going to show a lot of cool tools 9 00:00:34,824 --> 00:00:35,941 or things like that. 10 00:00:35,941 --> 00:00:37,291 It is about a conversation, 11 00:00:37,291 --> 00:00:41,336 sort of picking up on the talk that we just heard-- 12 00:00:41,336 --> 00:00:45,852 around issues, around Indigenous content, Indigenous people, Indigenous culture 13 00:00:45,852 --> 00:00:49,540 in Wikidata and Wikibase. 14 00:00:49,540 --> 00:00:53,888 And I really want us to think about a couple of key issues. 15 00:00:53,888 --> 00:00:56,166 One is the relationship between the data structures 16 00:00:56,166 --> 00:00:59,067 we create and maintain, 17 00:00:59,067 --> 00:01:02,438 and issues related to human rights and equity. 18 00:01:03,549 --> 00:01:06,154 So we should think-- We talk a lot about equity 19 00:01:06,154 --> 00:01:09,437 in terms of gaps and accessibility, 20 00:01:09,437 --> 00:01:12,334 but there are other ways that we can also think about equity 21 00:01:12,334 --> 00:01:14,306 in our projects. 22 00:01:15,506 --> 00:01:19,449 So the ways that we can use Wikidata as a space for activism, 23 00:01:19,449 --> 00:01:21,792 making the world better for more people. 24 00:01:21,792 --> 00:01:25,032 And modeling is hard, yet fun. 25 00:01:25,032 --> 00:01:26,438 So I want to talk about modeling-- 26 00:01:26,438 --> 00:01:29,885 hopefully you want to talk about modeling--a little bit, 27 00:01:29,885 --> 00:01:33,528 and sort of invite you into this conversation. 28 00:01:33,528 --> 00:01:37,000 I think we are going to hold some of the questions to the end. 29 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,199 But I also want to acknowledge that what I'm talking about today 30 00:01:42,199 --> 00:01:45,836 is not just my own thoughts, that this is really building 31 00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:49,773 on meetings like this, where we get to talk together about things. 32 00:01:49,773 --> 00:01:52,663 In particular, I want to call out 33 00:01:52,663 --> 00:01:54,891 the Canadian Federation of Library Association's 34 00:01:54,891 --> 00:01:58,529 Indigenous Matters Joint Working Group on Subject Headings and Classifications 35 00:01:58,529 --> 00:02:02,156 that is doing work intensely on this project right now; 36 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:06,053 also the National Indigenous Knowledges and Language Alliance 37 00:02:06,053 --> 00:02:07,746 Data Modeling Subgroup; 38 00:02:07,746 --> 00:02:13,008 and specifically Camille Callison, who's from the Tahltan Nation, 39 00:02:13,008 --> 00:02:14,357 at University of Manitoba; 40 00:02:14,357 --> 00:02:16,471 Dean Seeman at the University of Victoria; 41 00:02:16,471 --> 00:02:18,740 Tim Knight, who's with me at York University; 42 00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:21,669 and Alissa Cherry, who's at the Museum for Anthropology 43 00:02:21,669 --> 00:02:23,582 at the University of British Columbia. 44 00:02:25,232 --> 00:02:31,420 So what I want to center my talk today on is this idea of sovereignty and nationhood 45 00:02:31,420 --> 00:02:33,538 in relation to Indigenous peoples 46 00:02:33,538 --> 00:02:37,073 and how this impacts how we think about our data models. 47 00:02:37,073 --> 00:02:39,748 So I want to talk a little bit about colonization. 48 00:02:39,748 --> 00:02:42,700 So for those of us who are from colonized nations, 49 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:45,359 we have particular ways that we might think about 50 00:02:45,359 --> 00:02:50,717 how colonization impacts peoples and land. 51 00:02:50,717 --> 00:02:53,405 So we know that one of the goals of colonization 52 00:02:53,405 --> 00:02:57,166 is actually to remove the occupants of the land 53 00:02:57,166 --> 00:02:59,769 so that people can come and either settle that land, 54 00:02:59,769 --> 00:03:03,931 they can engage in resource extraction activities, 55 00:03:03,931 --> 00:03:06,964 they're opening up the land for agriculture 56 00:03:06,964 --> 00:03:08,511 and other forms of habitation. 57 00:03:08,511 --> 00:03:12,298 And we know that this is not in the past, this is ongoing today. 58 00:03:12,298 --> 00:03:15,172 We know that there are active things happening in the world right now 59 00:03:15,172 --> 00:03:18,576 which are seeking to remove occupants from land, 60 00:03:18,576 --> 00:03:20,881 sometimes lands they've occupied for thousands of years, 61 00:03:20,881 --> 00:03:23,797 in order to engage in these activities. 62 00:03:23,797 --> 00:03:29,466 And we know that colonial states engage in activities 63 00:03:29,466 --> 00:03:32,178 to assure their control over territory. 64 00:03:32,178 --> 00:03:35,095 And we heard a little bit about this this morning in relation to language. 65 00:03:35,095 --> 00:03:37,101 So we know that languages aren't endangered 66 00:03:37,101 --> 00:03:39,051 just through natural causes, 67 00:03:39,051 --> 00:03:42,352 that there are deliberate actions taken by governments or nation states 68 00:03:42,352 --> 00:03:45,128 to eradicate language in very deliberate ways, 69 00:03:45,128 --> 00:03:48,414 because language is connected to sovereignty. 70 00:03:48,414 --> 00:03:50,382 It's connected to saying that there is a culture 71 00:03:50,382 --> 00:03:53,549 and people are active in this culture and occupying the space. 72 00:03:53,549 --> 00:03:57,943 When we think about how small languages come to be small-- 73 00:03:57,943 --> 00:04:01,347 So I might get a little emotional about these issues, 74 00:04:01,347 --> 00:04:04,069 but these are the kinds of things that are really important-- 75 00:04:04,069 --> 00:04:09,603 culture deliberately being eradicated, and people, colonial nations 76 00:04:09,603 --> 00:04:12,933 involved in acts of genocide in various kinds of ways. 77 00:04:12,933 --> 00:04:14,440 So that's a very serious topic, 78 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,643 but it does actually impact the kind of work that we do 79 00:04:16,643 --> 00:04:18,577 and I think is a thread that runs through 80 00:04:18,577 --> 00:04:20,609 how we think about the importance of culture 81 00:04:20,609 --> 00:04:23,541 and the way that dominant culture is deployed 82 00:04:23,541 --> 00:04:26,618 within all kinds of cultural institutions. 83 00:04:26,618 --> 00:04:29,278 So a couple examples from Canada. 84 00:04:29,278 --> 00:04:31,813 There's many I could name, but I'll just name a couple. 85 00:04:31,813 --> 00:04:35,318 So currently there are fights taking place 86 00:04:35,318 --> 00:04:40,749 in the province of British Columbia, where the government of Canada 87 00:04:42,438 --> 00:04:44,591 and corporations are trying to build pipelines 88 00:04:44,591 --> 00:04:46,395 through Indigenous territory, 89 00:04:46,395 --> 00:04:53,819 and the hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en Nation 90 00:04:53,819 --> 00:04:56,719 does not want the pipeline built through their territory, 91 00:04:56,719 --> 00:05:00,348 but the government is actually arresting people who are protesting, 92 00:05:00,348 --> 00:05:02,245 even though they're on their land. 93 00:05:03,689 --> 00:05:06,729 The Indian Act in Canada was instituted as a deliberate way 94 00:05:06,729 --> 00:05:13,901 to engage in assimilation, so state-based assimilation tactics. 95 00:05:13,901 --> 00:05:17,348 This is again through the removal of language and culture. 96 00:05:17,348 --> 00:05:19,164 Ceremony was outlawed, 97 00:05:19,164 --> 00:05:22,618 so practicing your traditional ceremonies. 98 00:05:22,618 --> 00:05:27,486 The traditional governance structures for First Nations was outlawed. 99 00:05:27,486 --> 00:05:30,443 A pass system was introduced, so people were not allowed 100 00:05:30,443 --> 00:05:32,488 to leave their reserves without a pass. 101 00:05:32,488 --> 00:05:35,610 So you think about all the ways that those methods 102 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:41,261 or the sovereignty of a nation being actively worked against 103 00:05:41,261 --> 00:05:44,900 and, again, these tactics of assimilation. 104 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:47,297 And then, of course, many people here might know about 105 00:05:47,297 --> 00:05:49,350 the residential school system in Canada, 106 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:53,087 which was children being sent to boarding schools 107 00:05:53,087 --> 00:05:57,208 where it was, again, deliberate acts of assimilation 108 00:05:57,208 --> 00:06:01,180 where you were stripped of your language, of your clothing, 109 00:06:01,180 --> 00:06:03,825 not allowed contact with your families, and that's very deliberate. 110 00:06:03,825 --> 00:06:06,175 So, again, going back to the keynote we heard this morning 111 00:06:06,175 --> 00:06:10,113 about parents choosing to pass on their language, 112 00:06:10,113 --> 00:06:14,328 well that choice is taken away when children are sent away to school. 113 00:06:14,328 --> 00:06:18,711 So that has long-lasting intergenerational impacts 114 00:06:18,711 --> 00:06:23,328 on the ways that families work and on culture. 115 00:06:23,328 --> 00:06:29,583 So the Truth and Reconciliation Commission came out with calls to action, 116 00:06:29,583 --> 00:06:34,609 some of those deliberately calling out cultural heritage and education 117 00:06:34,609 --> 00:06:36,326 in some of these places 118 00:06:36,326 --> 00:06:40,591 where colonial practices are actually ongoing. 119 00:06:43,681 --> 00:06:46,049 So recognizing the right to self-govern 120 00:06:46,049 --> 00:06:50,042 and to autonomy and sovereignty over land, that's very important. 121 00:06:51,205 --> 00:06:55,361 So it also governs our relationships between nations. 122 00:06:55,361 --> 00:06:57,562 We might use in Canada, quite often, this idea 123 00:06:57,562 --> 00:06:59,513 of nation-to-nation relationship. 124 00:06:59,513 --> 00:07:03,906 So that recognizes that the government of Canada is a nation, 125 00:07:03,906 --> 00:07:06,587 but within Canada there are also multiple nations. 126 00:07:06,587 --> 00:07:12,429 So when we have a First Nation engaging in negotiation with a government 127 00:07:12,429 --> 00:07:17,281 that's considered a nation-to-nation relationship. 128 00:07:17,281 --> 00:07:21,574 Many Indigenous people in Canada do not recognize Canadian citizenship. 129 00:07:21,574 --> 00:07:24,647 They do not want to be associated with being Canadian. 130 00:07:24,647 --> 00:07:30,772 I know if I write Wikipedia articles about Indigenous folks that I know, 131 00:07:30,772 --> 00:07:35,499 one thing I have heard repeatedly is, "Do not say I'm from Canada." 132 00:07:35,499 --> 00:07:40,470 "I don't want to be 'so and so is an artist in Canada,' 133 00:07:40,470 --> 00:07:42,743 or 'is a Canadian'... no." 134 00:07:42,743 --> 00:07:44,576 So what does it mean when we take that person 135 00:07:44,576 --> 00:07:46,858 and we have a Wikidata item for them 136 00:07:46,858 --> 00:07:49,470 and we say that their citizenship is Canadian? 137 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,131 You know, that's actually an act of violence against that-- 138 00:07:53,131 --> 00:07:56,743 I mean, it sounds very serious, but it is, because we are saying that person, 139 00:07:56,743 --> 00:08:01,105 who is actively working to resist 140 00:08:01,105 --> 00:08:07,477 the colonial system, 141 00:08:07,477 --> 00:08:10,033 and then we are saying in their data, "Oh, but they're Canadian." 142 00:08:10,033 --> 00:08:12,349 "Well, I want to be able to run a SPARQL query against them 143 00:08:12,349 --> 00:08:13,635 and bring up all the Canadians." 144 00:08:13,635 --> 00:08:17,070 Well, that would be useful, but what does it mean 145 00:08:17,070 --> 00:08:19,984 when we replicate these kinds of things in our data? 146 00:08:21,233 --> 00:08:24,056 So recognizing Indigenous sovereignty is an important aspect 147 00:08:24,056 --> 00:08:26,080 in creating a more just and equitable world, 148 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,713 even though we might not get the kinds of data that we might want. 149 00:08:29,713 --> 00:08:32,663 So if we're going to take the strategic areas 150 00:08:32,663 --> 00:08:35,133 of knowledge equity seriously, 151 00:08:35,133 --> 00:08:38,762 we also need to pay attention to the structures in our data. 152 00:08:38,762 --> 00:08:41,795 So again, we tend to think along gaps like the gender gap, 153 00:08:41,795 --> 00:08:44,766 visibility gaps, small language and marginalized communities, 154 00:08:44,766 --> 00:08:48,954 but when we think about why are these communities small, 155 00:08:48,954 --> 00:08:50,815 or what does it mean when we have these gaps? 156 00:08:50,815 --> 00:08:53,282 And we have to, again, think about the structures 157 00:08:53,282 --> 00:08:56,822 and how we're conceptualized in our data and how we're treating... 158 00:08:56,822 --> 00:08:59,461 Just like the example of the photograph. 159 00:08:59,461 --> 00:09:03,141 Again, why is that so bothersome to the Sámi community? 160 00:09:03,141 --> 00:09:06,974 It's because, yet again, culture being appropriated, 161 00:09:06,974 --> 00:09:09,742 them being misnamed. 162 00:09:09,742 --> 00:09:11,975 Or again, and we see in Canada, 163 00:09:11,975 --> 00:09:15,866 a return to the original traditional names of territory. 164 00:09:15,866 --> 00:09:17,972 And so all of these things are really important, 165 00:09:17,972 --> 00:09:21,845 and we have to think about how we can center these practices 166 00:09:21,845 --> 00:09:23,887 in the work that we're doing. 167 00:09:25,871 --> 00:09:28,605 So again, I just want to emphasize that belonging to a nation 168 00:09:28,605 --> 00:09:31,577 is not the same thing as belonging to an ethnicity. 169 00:09:31,577 --> 00:09:34,296 I know sometimes that we think about those things as being the same, 170 00:09:34,296 --> 00:09:35,306 but they're not. 171 00:09:35,306 --> 00:09:37,119 So again, it's thinking about the relationship 172 00:09:37,119 --> 00:09:43,414 between nationhood and nationality, belonging to a nation and citizenship, 173 00:09:43,414 --> 00:09:45,825 and the governant structure that goes with that is different 174 00:09:45,825 --> 00:09:48,599 than the ways we think about ethnicity. 175 00:09:50,283 --> 00:09:55,014 And again, just to stress again that it then becomes a conversation 176 00:09:55,014 --> 00:09:58,070 around relationships between nations, governance, land, and people. 177 00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:59,408 So if we think about colonization 178 00:09:59,408 --> 00:10:02,503 as an act of removing people from their land, 179 00:10:02,503 --> 00:10:06,586 or reducing their sovereignty over the territory they occupy, 180 00:10:06,586 --> 00:10:09,067 how can we, in the data that we produce, 181 00:10:09,067 --> 00:10:15,901 recognize that these nations 182 00:10:15,901 --> 00:10:18,095 are occupying a particular spot. 183 00:10:18,095 --> 00:10:23,450 If we aren't talking about nationhood and we talk about a territory 184 00:10:23,450 --> 00:10:28,081 then we make those people absent from that territory, 185 00:10:28,081 --> 00:10:29,773 whether they're presently there or not. 186 00:10:29,773 --> 00:10:31,309 So again, another thing to think about 187 00:10:31,309 --> 00:10:35,709 is how we document occupation over time, as well, 188 00:10:35,709 --> 00:10:37,814 because one of the things that you hear about, 189 00:10:37,814 --> 00:10:40,052 especially in reference to places like North America, 190 00:10:40,052 --> 00:10:43,987 is that, "Well, no one was there. It was a vast wilderness of unoccupied..." 191 00:10:43,987 --> 00:10:45,542 Well, that's not true. 192 00:10:45,542 --> 00:10:49,447 People have been living in North America for thousands of years. 193 00:10:49,447 --> 00:10:53,427 I have ancestors who have been living in Canada, or the area of Canada, 194 00:10:53,427 --> 00:10:54,541 for thousands of years. 195 00:10:54,541 --> 00:10:59,684 So it's not an unoccupied space that people just came in and discovered. 196 00:10:59,684 --> 00:11:02,586 So this concept of discovery is helpful 197 00:11:02,586 --> 00:11:05,392 in the ways that we think about 198 00:11:05,392 --> 00:11:10,494 the colonial practices. 199 00:11:11,450 --> 00:11:13,743 So I'm going to talk a little bit about myself, 200 00:11:13,743 --> 00:11:15,173 because I feel like I can. 201 00:11:15,173 --> 00:11:16,680 Again, it's about being respectful. 202 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,637 I don't want to talk about someone else's nations, 203 00:11:18,637 --> 00:11:20,979 I'm going to talk about my own a little bit. 204 00:11:20,979 --> 00:11:24,277 So this is a picture of me and my dad. 205 00:11:24,277 --> 00:11:30,861 So my grandmother, my dad's mum, is a Métis. 206 00:11:30,861 --> 00:11:33,526 And, just again, in reference to the conversation this morning, 207 00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:37,105 she did not teach her language to my dad. 208 00:11:37,105 --> 00:11:39,154 She was living away from her community, 209 00:11:39,154 --> 00:11:43,053 and it was definitely a thing where you were not... 210 00:11:43,053 --> 00:11:46,289 She did not want to talk about being Indigenous. 211 00:11:46,289 --> 00:11:51,024 That was not a safe thing to be in the community that she was in. 212 00:11:51,024 --> 00:11:52,478 I'm from Thunder Bay, Ontario. 213 00:11:52,478 --> 00:11:55,231 I don't know how many people we have here... probably not. 214 00:11:55,231 --> 00:11:56,712 Anyway, it's not known-- 215 00:11:56,712 --> 00:12:00,488 It's known for having pretty serious problems with racism. 216 00:12:00,488 --> 00:12:04,075 And so that was her choice. 217 00:12:04,075 --> 00:12:05,575 This is a picture of... 218 00:12:05,575 --> 00:12:08,621 The young man standing in the back there is my great grandfather. 219 00:12:10,061 --> 00:12:14,049 And the document on the far side there, 220 00:12:14,049 --> 00:12:17,596 I just want to talk about the ways that... 221 00:12:18,546 --> 00:12:23,870 So you have this problem of Indigeneity, 222 00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:31,060 or these kinds of culture being suppressed in various ways. 223 00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:34,422 But in the process of culture recovery or in resurgence 224 00:12:34,422 --> 00:12:38,000 or wanting to be connected with a particular nation, 225 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,300 sometimes that becomes a form of documentation. 226 00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:41,990 So how do you prove you're a member? 227 00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:44,280 There's saying you have connections to the community, 228 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,963 but a lot of that is through documentation. 229 00:12:45,963 --> 00:12:50,148 This document here is The Métis Petition of 1840, 230 00:12:50,148 --> 00:12:52,211 from the Penetanguishene area, 231 00:12:52,211 --> 00:12:55,769 and it's around when treaties were being signed in that area. 232 00:12:55,769 --> 00:12:58,086 Settlers were starting to come in, they wanted the land, 233 00:12:58,086 --> 00:12:59,383 so they had to have a treaty 234 00:12:59,383 --> 00:13:01,272 so they could move all the Indigenous people, 235 00:13:01,272 --> 00:13:05,194 First Nations people, to an area to free up the land for settlers. 236 00:13:05,194 --> 00:13:08,861 That's a very crude way of talking about it. 237 00:13:08,861 --> 00:13:13,659 And this document is actually signed by some of my ancestors. 238 00:13:15,029 --> 00:13:18,470 It's a letter to the Lieutenant-Governor at the time, saying, "Wait a minute." 239 00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:21,869 Because it's called The Half-Breed Petition. 240 00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:28,396 So they're saying, "Wait a minute. We are native also. 241 00:13:28,396 --> 00:13:31,140 We should be included." 242 00:13:31,140 --> 00:13:33,008 Because they called it "Indian presence"; 243 00:13:33,008 --> 00:13:34,561 they wanted to be included 244 00:13:34,561 --> 00:13:41,020 in the negotiations that were going on. 245 00:13:44,189 --> 00:13:46,947 So this became a very important document presently, 246 00:13:46,947 --> 00:13:52,643 in showing that this community was expressing an Indigenous identity. 247 00:13:52,643 --> 00:13:56,204 Because the Métis were not recognized by the government 248 00:13:56,204 --> 00:14:02,130 as an Indigenous people until fairly recently. 249 00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:08,340 So all of this is about being outside of those negotiations. 250 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:11,434 And so one thing about this document is it's in a collection, 251 00:14:11,434 --> 00:14:12,556 a digital collection. 252 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:17,056 It took me forever to find it, because it's just a scan of a microfiche. 253 00:14:17,846 --> 00:14:20,597 So it was just like a... There's nothing, there's no way-- 254 00:14:20,597 --> 00:14:23,433 So this is this super-important document, lots of people want to see it, 255 00:14:23,433 --> 00:14:27,035 and there's no metadata in this collection that connects-- 256 00:14:27,035 --> 00:14:28,551 There's actually just zero metadata. 257 00:14:28,551 --> 00:14:33,151 It's just like a long roll of things related to correspondence 258 00:14:34,081 --> 00:14:36,689 related to the British government at that time. 259 00:14:36,689 --> 00:14:39,664 So when we think about how also we can surface documents 260 00:14:39,664 --> 00:14:42,715 in a particular way that are important to recognizing, 261 00:14:42,715 --> 00:14:46,943 again, the existence of Indigenous people in particular areas 262 00:14:46,943 --> 00:14:49,444 is another thing that becomes really important. 263 00:14:51,464 --> 00:14:54,340 So again, this is talking about my own nation. 264 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:59,930 When we talk about ways that we might conceptualize nationhood or territories, 265 00:14:59,930 --> 00:15:04,464 this is actually a map of what the Métis Nation of Ontario 266 00:15:04,464 --> 00:15:06,473 has designated as harvesting territory. 267 00:15:06,473 --> 00:15:11,504 So that's actually related to hunting and fishing rights, 268 00:15:11,504 --> 00:15:15,209 and that was negotiated between the government of Ontario 269 00:15:15,209 --> 00:15:17,374 and the Métis Nation of Ontario. 270 00:15:17,374 --> 00:15:23,873 The Captains of the Hunt are the people who oversee that all of these activities. 271 00:15:23,873 --> 00:15:27,232 So although I live in Toronto, which is actually down here, 272 00:15:27,232 --> 00:15:30,746 this would be considered my traditional harvesting territory 273 00:15:30,746 --> 00:15:34,611 because that's where I can tie my ancestors to. 274 00:15:34,611 --> 00:15:37,584 So when we think about how we might model that kind of thing, 275 00:15:37,584 --> 00:15:40,222 when we're thinking, again, about structures in our data, 276 00:15:40,222 --> 00:15:46,469 we need to recognize community roles that also have ties to territory. 277 00:15:47,839 --> 00:15:52,526 And then I'm going to talk a little bit about-- 278 00:15:52,526 --> 00:15:54,431 Again, you don't have-- 279 00:15:54,431 --> 00:15:58,568 Not all Indigenous peoples agree on what is someone's territory. 280 00:15:58,568 --> 00:16:02,028 So there are disputes between different things. 281 00:16:02,028 --> 00:16:07,322 So recently the Métis National Council 282 00:16:07,322 --> 00:16:12,713 has decided that this is the map of the Métis Nation in Canada. 283 00:16:12,713 --> 00:16:17,957 This does not recognize the Métis people in British Columbia 284 00:16:17,957 --> 00:16:21,543 or in some parts of Ontario, so these other places are saying, 285 00:16:21,543 --> 00:16:23,438 "Wait a minute. We don't agree with this map." 286 00:16:23,438 --> 00:16:29,821 So one of the things is who decides or how are we going to negotiate between-- 287 00:16:29,821 --> 00:16:34,355 Is it actually allowing for multiplicity of... 288 00:16:35,665 --> 00:16:40,174 And then the First Nations people whose land, this territory, covers, 289 00:16:40,174 --> 00:16:42,405 were like, "Well, you didn't ask us about this map." 290 00:16:42,405 --> 00:16:46,454 So there is also thinking about the ways that we need to negotiate 291 00:16:46,454 --> 00:16:50,721 between claims on territory, how we might document those claims, 292 00:16:50,721 --> 00:16:56,823 but also allowing for recognition that there is overlapping, 293 00:16:56,823 --> 00:17:00,923 kinds of ways that we consider territory. 294 00:17:03,859 --> 00:17:07,737 So I just wanted to post this quote, 295 00:17:07,737 --> 00:17:13,578 because I think it's a really good way of talking about how colonization, 296 00:17:13,578 --> 00:17:18,343 we don't notice it, because it is, in many places, the dominant culture. 297 00:17:18,343 --> 00:17:21,701 It's the dominant way we think about the world. 298 00:17:21,701 --> 00:17:24,701 We don't necessarily notice these kinds of things. 299 00:17:24,701 --> 00:17:30,815 So again, when we think about the perspectives of the marginalized, 300 00:17:30,815 --> 00:17:33,385 so again, when we're talking with all of us, 301 00:17:33,385 --> 00:17:35,750 when we think about our data models and our data structures, 302 00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:39,825 how do we allow for properties or items 303 00:17:39,825 --> 00:17:42,405 that maybe we don't think are important 304 00:17:42,405 --> 00:17:46,491 but are actually vitally important for all kinds of marginalized communities? 305 00:17:46,491 --> 00:17:48,361 And this goes beyond Indigenous communities. 306 00:17:48,361 --> 00:17:50,776 This speaks to all kinds of marginalized people. 307 00:17:51,838 --> 00:17:57,442 And so we have to think about the ways that we can use our data structures 308 00:17:57,442 --> 00:18:01,013 to address some of these issues 309 00:18:01,013 --> 00:18:05,022 and to become a space where we actually are working for justice 310 00:18:05,022 --> 00:18:07,952 within our data structures. 311 00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:13,810 Okay. I don't know how I'm doing for time. I forgot to put my timer on. 312 00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:17,124 Oh my goodness! Okay! (laughing) I've just got five minutes! 313 00:18:17,124 --> 00:18:18,857 So I'm going to speed through some examples. 314 00:18:18,857 --> 00:18:22,210 Now I do have real-life examples. 315 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:27,716 I'm working with, as part of a member of the CFLA Indigenous Matters Group 316 00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:29,428 and NIKLA, we're working on the development 317 00:18:29,428 --> 00:18:32,705 of a First Nations, Métis, and Inuit ontology. 318 00:18:32,705 --> 00:18:37,169 We have developed this list, this is just a little sample, 319 00:18:37,169 --> 00:18:39,287 of all the kinds of things that we're collecting 320 00:18:39,287 --> 00:18:42,214 of what we're calling community names. 321 00:18:42,214 --> 00:18:45,738 We had a soft launch of this data on June 21st 322 00:18:45,738 --> 00:18:47,874 for National Indigenous Peoples Day 323 00:18:49,304 --> 00:18:52,212 and we are hopefully going to be deploying this 324 00:18:52,212 --> 00:18:55,147 within Wikibase, is the plan. 325 00:18:55,147 --> 00:18:56,637 We have some stuff in there, 326 00:18:56,637 --> 00:19:00,446 but I think we're going to have to just wipe it and start over 327 00:19:00,446 --> 00:19:02,618 because we're really-- 328 00:19:02,618 --> 00:19:05,574 We've come to realize where a part of our work really lies 329 00:19:05,574 --> 00:19:06,850 is in the data modeling. 330 00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:09,211 So we really need to be thinking about our data structures 331 00:19:09,211 --> 00:19:12,887 and how we are going to conceptualize that data 332 00:19:12,887 --> 00:19:17,117 within the Wikibase environment. 333 00:19:17,117 --> 00:19:19,691 Part of this is also related to Wikidata. 334 00:19:19,691 --> 00:19:24,380 So I've kind of been ignoring some parts of Wikidata 335 00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:28,359 because I kind of don't want to have to deal with some of it. 336 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,820 (chuckling) I'll just be really honest. 337 00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:34,234 So there is "nation" in Wikidata. 338 00:19:34,234 --> 00:19:39,943 So one of the questions I would have is if you have Ojibwe, is that an ethnic-- 339 00:19:39,943 --> 00:19:41,587 Currently I think it's an ethnic group-- 340 00:19:41,587 --> 00:19:44,558 Is it an ethnic group? Is it a nation? Is it both those things? 341 00:19:44,558 --> 00:19:46,922 Do we have both those things at the same time? 342 00:19:46,922 --> 00:19:51,401 I think that's a question I have not yet figured out how to answer. 343 00:19:51,401 --> 00:19:54,740 We do have something called "native land" in Wikidata. 344 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:57,625 When I first looked at it a couple days ago, maybe last week, 345 00:19:57,625 --> 00:19:59,034 I kind of stumbled on it, 346 00:19:59,034 --> 00:20:02,378 and it actually was an instance of an isolated human settlement 347 00:20:02,378 --> 00:20:08,218 so maybe not the best way to describe something that is called "native land." 348 00:20:08,218 --> 00:20:13,710 So again, when we're thinking about maybe it's good to check in with somebody. 349 00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:16,340 I want to just show this example of "Anishinaabe." 350 00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:21,409 So Anishinaabe, here it's an ethnic group. I would say it's also a nation. 351 00:20:21,409 --> 00:20:23,412 But it's a nation that also contains other nations, 352 00:20:23,412 --> 00:20:25,793 so it's actually based on kind of a language group, 353 00:20:25,793 --> 00:20:31,075 but contains the nations of Ojibwe, Ottawa, 354 00:20:31,075 --> 00:20:33,765 and a number of other groups within that. 355 00:20:33,765 --> 00:20:36,625 So how do we think about, I don't want to say hierarchy, 356 00:20:36,625 --> 00:20:38,130 but there's a way of-- 357 00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:40,519 A relationship has to be designated there. 358 00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:45,589 Also, one of the things in that item is a link to the official website 359 00:20:45,589 --> 00:20:46,983 for the Anishinabek Nation. 360 00:20:46,983 --> 00:20:50,980 The ethnic group doesn't have an official website, 361 00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:56,626 so do we have Anishinabek Nation as an organization, 362 00:20:56,626 --> 00:20:59,425 and then we have a nation, and then we have...? 363 00:20:59,425 --> 00:21:01,423 So there's a lot of modeling questions that I have 364 00:21:01,423 --> 00:21:03,809 around how we might want to work this out. 365 00:21:03,809 --> 00:21:08,895 This is another example of an archival item. 366 00:21:08,895 --> 00:21:14,351 In the item record for this document there's no actual reference 367 00:21:14,351 --> 00:21:19,665 to Cherokee peoples or how this information was collected, 368 00:21:19,665 --> 00:21:23,793 so we might want to think about how we relate some of these documents, 369 00:21:23,793 --> 00:21:28,454 especially when they come from a colonial government, 370 00:21:28,454 --> 00:21:31,702 how they are documented in Wikidata. 371 00:21:32,632 --> 00:21:34,851 And I just wanted to close with this quote, 372 00:21:34,851 --> 00:21:39,712 which is this idea of solidarity-- how do we stand in solidarity 373 00:21:39,712 --> 00:21:44,134 with all kinds of communities in our larger community? 374 00:21:44,134 --> 00:21:49,437 How do we recognize, again, these places where we really need to be sensitive, 375 00:21:50,197 --> 00:21:53,752 and also recognizing that some of these issues, 376 00:21:53,752 --> 00:21:56,634 for some communities, are vitally important 377 00:21:56,634 --> 00:21:59,539 and it really does matter how someone is called 378 00:21:59,539 --> 00:22:02,807 or how someone is conceptualized within our data 379 00:22:02,807 --> 00:22:05,724 because it does matter what you see, 380 00:22:05,724 --> 00:22:11,144 but also how it impacts the larger internet and world around us. 381 00:22:11,144 --> 00:22:13,033 And I'll close with that. Thanks. 382 00:22:13,033 --> 00:22:14,944 (applause) 383 00:22:18,744 --> 00:22:20,943 (moderator) Thank you very much, Stacy. 384 00:22:20,943 --> 00:22:24,315 I invite back all of our presenters. 385 00:22:25,595 --> 00:22:29,233 So, if there are any questions, we've got lots of time. 386 00:22:29,233 --> 00:22:33,390 We made them cramp a bit their presentation 387 00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:39,694 in order to let you express your opinions or your questions, etc. 388 00:22:39,694 --> 00:22:42,576 Also, thank you, Jon, for your work. 389 00:22:45,986 --> 00:22:47,548 Yeah, there's a question there. 390 00:22:48,294 --> 00:22:51,912 (Dragan Espenschied) Hi, I'm Dragan, from Rhizome, 391 00:22:51,912 --> 00:22:57,495 and I wanted to ask Stacy what is your view or experience 392 00:22:57,495 --> 00:23:02,731 with data itself being kind of colonial? 393 00:23:02,731 --> 00:23:06,299 Because sometimes I have the impression that 394 00:23:06,299 --> 00:23:10,823 especially the things that seem ambiguous are reflected in data 395 00:23:10,823 --> 00:23:12,643 with the most descriptions, 396 00:23:12,643 --> 00:23:16,785 and the idea of data to remove ambiguity 397 00:23:16,785 --> 00:23:20,708 is kind of something that has struck me. 398 00:23:20,708 --> 00:23:25,190 And I wonder, especially when you see these disputed territories-- 399 00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:28,921 maybe no one ever cared about it before, but now you have to describe it 400 00:23:28,921 --> 00:23:30,500 and then suddenly it becomes a problem. 401 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,435 So what is your...? 402 00:23:32,435 --> 00:23:35,157 Yeah, I feel like this is my life. So I was a cataloger, for-- 403 00:23:35,157 --> 00:23:36,764 I don't know if anybody else here is a-- 404 00:23:36,764 --> 00:23:38,885 As you know, I'm a librarian. I worked as a cataloger. 405 00:23:38,885 --> 00:23:40,826 You can never get it right, it always feels like. 406 00:23:40,826 --> 00:23:45,791 You're always going to be... There's no right answer, in a way. 407 00:23:45,791 --> 00:23:46,984 There's only attempts. 408 00:23:46,984 --> 00:23:51,520 But I do think that one of the issues is that all of our structures 409 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,593 that we work with are colonial and express power in different ways. 410 00:23:55,593 --> 00:23:59,018 So there's no way that we... 411 00:23:59,958 --> 00:24:05,581 We can't really "decolonize," I will say, many of our systems, 412 00:24:05,581 --> 00:24:07,383 because that's just the way they are. 413 00:24:07,383 --> 00:24:13,305 We we think about museums, or libraries, or even sets of data, 414 00:24:13,305 --> 00:24:16,767 that it's built into the code in some ways. 415 00:24:16,767 --> 00:24:19,826 So where are points for resistance and recognition 416 00:24:19,826 --> 00:24:22,341 within some of those systems, and how do we work to change, 417 00:24:22,341 --> 00:24:24,959 make systemic change from the beginning, 418 00:24:24,959 --> 00:24:27,877 when we think about ways that we start off? 419 00:24:27,877 --> 00:24:32,971 There's, I don't know, it's like a scale 420 00:24:32,971 --> 00:24:36,797 of better and worse things. 421 00:24:36,797 --> 00:24:42,064 But I think if we're operating from a point of consultation, of respect, 422 00:24:42,064 --> 00:24:47,686 of recognizing human rights when we take those things into account, 423 00:24:47,686 --> 00:24:50,971 and how can we push our organizations to do better. 424 00:24:50,971 --> 00:24:54,277 So one of the reasons that we started with having this ontology 425 00:24:54,277 --> 00:24:57,852 is because it's actually to replace Library of Congress terminology 426 00:24:57,852 --> 00:24:59,018 in our libraries, 427 00:24:59,018 --> 00:25:02,362 because in Canada we often use Library of Congress terms. 428 00:25:02,362 --> 00:25:05,324 Those terms were developed for Congress in the United States. 429 00:25:05,324 --> 00:25:07,440 They often don't fit the Canadian experience. 430 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,141 Like the heading for Indigenous people, for First Nations people, 431 00:25:11,141 --> 00:25:13,712 is "Indians of North America" still. 432 00:25:13,712 --> 00:25:16,478 And we have little hope that the government of the United States 433 00:25:16,478 --> 00:25:18,509 is really vested in changing those terms. 434 00:25:18,509 --> 00:25:19,582 (laughter) 435 00:25:19,582 --> 00:25:20,952 So it's part of-- 436 00:25:20,952 --> 00:25:22,665 Given that, what can we do? 437 00:25:22,665 --> 00:25:26,542 And it is to develop our own ontology 438 00:25:26,542 --> 00:25:28,375 that people can use to replace those terms. 439 00:25:28,375 --> 00:25:32,221 So I don't know if that's a great answer, but I think there isn't-- 440 00:25:32,221 --> 00:25:34,427 We're always in those structures, 441 00:25:34,427 --> 00:25:37,909 so what can we do at various kinds of points? 442 00:25:42,736 --> 00:25:46,061 (woman) I have a question for all of you. 443 00:25:46,061 --> 00:25:51,945 How do you deal with pushback when someone might say, 444 00:25:52,602 --> 00:25:56,648 "Well, this is the answer in a Western peer-reviewed journal. 445 00:25:56,648 --> 00:26:03,720 This is how they called the people of 1890 and you're saying that this is inaccurate, 446 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,457 but where do you have your proof when here it is 447 00:26:06,457 --> 00:26:08,816 in a Western peer-reviewed journal?" 448 00:26:08,816 --> 00:26:11,078 How do you deal with that kind of pushback? 449 00:26:12,242 --> 00:26:13,809 (moderator) Who wants to go first? 450 00:26:13,809 --> 00:26:14,894 (laughter) 451 00:26:14,894 --> 00:26:17,940 (woman) I'm not sure which one of us is less likely to talk. 452 00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:22,849 (chuckling) Yeah. This is a horrible question. 453 00:26:22,849 --> 00:26:27,835 Actually, it's a wonderful question at the same time. 454 00:26:27,835 --> 00:26:30,735 But, for instance, if you look at the Sámi... 455 00:26:30,735 --> 00:26:32,586 I recommend each and every one of you today 456 00:26:32,586 --> 00:26:35,322 to go look at the Wikipedias and look at the different ones 457 00:26:35,322 --> 00:26:37,499 and see what they call the Sámi. 458 00:26:37,499 --> 00:26:40,623 The Sámi call themselves Sámi-- *sápmelaččat* in Northern Sámi, 459 00:26:40,623 --> 00:26:43,141 *sápmelaččat* in Skolt Sámi. 460 00:26:43,141 --> 00:26:48,087 In the Spanish Wikipedia it's *lapp,* (chuckles sarcastically) 461 00:26:48,087 --> 00:26:51,054 and *lapp* is a horribly racist word. 462 00:26:51,054 --> 00:26:55,947 And there is a *huge* discussion about this in the Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias 463 00:26:55,947 --> 00:27:00,272 about what you can say-- "Well, Sámi's not in our language." 464 00:27:00,272 --> 00:27:03,065 And I know it's been used in-- and I used to live in Barcelona. 465 00:27:03,065 --> 00:27:05,464 I know it's used in Catalan, "Sámi." 466 00:27:05,464 --> 00:27:08,498 And the Wikipedias have decided 467 00:27:08,498 --> 00:27:11,365 they're going to use the racist word instead. 468 00:27:11,365 --> 00:27:16,885 Because it's not in any peer-reviewed article somewhere. 469 00:27:16,885 --> 00:27:18,218 So... 470 00:27:19,778 --> 00:27:22,554 Yes, so... (chuckles) 471 00:27:22,554 --> 00:27:25,278 But, I mean, we have this session here today, 472 00:27:25,278 --> 00:27:29,515 and part of it is we invite the community to think about these things 473 00:27:29,515 --> 00:27:31,424 and how we can... 474 00:27:31,424 --> 00:27:33,175 What do you think we should do? 475 00:27:33,175 --> 00:27:35,866 Part of it is what is the appropriate evidence? 476 00:27:35,866 --> 00:27:37,628 If it's used in one peer-reviewed journal, 477 00:27:37,628 --> 00:27:40,436 do we have to collect evidence somewhere else? 478 00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:42,635 How do we encourage the community 479 00:27:42,635 --> 00:27:47,334 to think about their responsibility in this space? 480 00:27:47,334 --> 00:27:52,143 And it's maybe a long process, but when things are-- 481 00:27:52,143 --> 00:27:54,492 I think that's something, especially in Commons, 482 00:27:54,492 --> 00:27:56,208 when we have images, I know there are lots 483 00:27:56,208 --> 00:27:58,567 for North America that are really problematic 484 00:27:58,567 --> 00:28:01,276 and people will say, "Well, it's public domain." 485 00:28:01,999 --> 00:28:07,025 So I think that's a really good... I don't have a quick or easy answer. 486 00:28:07,025 --> 00:28:08,978 (woman) We'll need to talk about that, yeah. 487 00:28:08,978 --> 00:28:12,624 Yeah, I would like to be a little bit optimistic with Wikidata, 488 00:28:12,624 --> 00:28:15,059 because, well, I like Wikidata. 489 00:28:15,059 --> 00:28:21,466 I think that the perfect side of it is that we can express different views. 490 00:28:21,466 --> 00:28:27,140 We can display the peer-reviewed terminology, 491 00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:30,951 but we can contest it with other evidence. 492 00:28:30,951 --> 00:28:37,059 So I think this is... Well, it relieves the responsibility to the respondent, 493 00:28:37,059 --> 00:28:40,463 but still it gives new opportunities. 494 00:28:46,403 --> 00:28:51,701 [inaudible crosstalk] 495 00:28:53,021 --> 00:28:54,711 Sorry. 496 00:28:54,711 --> 00:28:59,252 Okay, let's try this one. Sorry, sorry about that. 497 00:28:59,252 --> 00:29:02,039 (man) So, two things I was going to mention, 498 00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:06,403 but one of them is the one you just said, that for situations where, 499 00:29:06,403 --> 00:29:09,656 like you spoke about the Canadian citizenship problem, 500 00:29:09,656 --> 00:29:15,842 that can certainly be entered as, you could say, "He's Canadian, 501 00:29:15,842 --> 00:29:19,582 claimed by the Canadian government," or whatever this is, 502 00:29:19,582 --> 00:29:22,842 and have a different thing that says his citizenship is something else, 503 00:29:22,842 --> 00:29:27,452 or even unknown, or even no value if we don't have a nation... 504 00:29:28,402 --> 00:29:31,174 if the nation is not allowed by Wikidata in there, 505 00:29:31,174 --> 00:29:32,424 which is a different discussion 506 00:29:32,424 --> 00:29:35,456 that I guess you probably will have to have at some point. 507 00:29:35,456 --> 00:29:38,131 So this is perfectly doable in that sense. 508 00:29:38,131 --> 00:29:40,090 The person's probably still going to be unhappy 509 00:29:40,090 --> 00:29:42,367 that the Canadian citizenship is listed at all, 510 00:29:42,367 --> 00:29:43,907 but at least you can show them that... 511 00:29:43,907 --> 00:29:50,092 So it's listed as not a universal truth, but only as one of the possible opinions. 512 00:29:50,665 --> 00:29:52,678 Another thing I wanted to bring up for a moment 513 00:29:52,678 --> 00:29:54,802 is something I was talking to Kimberli-- 514 00:29:54,802 --> 00:29:57,978 it was kind of run through through the slides 515 00:29:57,978 --> 00:30:00,788 because of the time concerns. 516 00:30:02,188 --> 00:30:05,940 This part was easier in the sense that, okay, if you have two different things 517 00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:08,747 and you can put the two things there and it's okay, 518 00:30:08,747 --> 00:30:09,935 but what happens for cases 519 00:30:09,935 --> 00:30:13,101 where the community does not want this knowledge to be public at all? 520 00:30:19,371 --> 00:30:24,238 - Ah yeah, the Indigenous one. - (man) Yeah. 521 00:30:25,813 --> 00:30:32,964 I think there is space for us to work on privacy, sensitive data, 522 00:30:32,964 --> 00:30:39,747 and identifying those and finding out ways 523 00:30:39,747 --> 00:30:46,637 to handle content that we find, or the communities find, problematic. 524 00:30:46,637 --> 00:30:53,566 It's a large discussion, and it has a lot of legal aspects. 525 00:30:53,566 --> 00:30:55,997 It has a lot of ethical aspects, 526 00:30:55,997 --> 00:31:02,636 and it ties to copyright as well and the ownership of the content. 527 00:31:03,092 --> 00:31:07,564 So, well, lots of things to say about that. 528 00:31:07,564 --> 00:31:11,990 Yeah, and I will also say that you just-- [inaudible] 529 00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:15,328 Copyright regimes that we are familiar with are colonial. 530 00:31:15,328 --> 00:31:20,800 There's actually a huge friction between copyright regimes 531 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,223 that are used in most countries and traditional knowledge. 532 00:31:25,223 --> 00:31:28,227 I think we have to maybe be comfortable sometimes 533 00:31:28,227 --> 00:31:30,023 with deleting content, 534 00:31:30,023 --> 00:31:32,284 even that we say, "Well, it's public domain." 535 00:31:32,284 --> 00:31:35,140 Well, public domain, it does not necessarily have a meaning 536 00:31:35,140 --> 00:31:38,598 in an Indigenous community or in certain communities. 537 00:31:38,598 --> 00:31:43,703 So what does it mean when, again, when we go back to this idea 538 00:31:43,703 --> 00:31:46,187 of sovereignty and recognizing human rights 539 00:31:46,187 --> 00:31:47,298 when we say-- 540 00:31:47,298 --> 00:31:52,184 I was at a meeting that the Canadian government was sponsoring 541 00:31:52,184 --> 00:31:55,794 on copyright regime in Canada and Indigenous knowledge, 542 00:31:55,794 --> 00:32:00,717 and someone said--and it just really has stayed with me since that meeting-- 543 00:32:00,717 --> 00:32:03,047 "Human rights before property rights." 544 00:32:04,017 --> 00:32:07,893 Again, if we are taking human rights as our prime motivator 545 00:32:07,893 --> 00:32:09,344 and prime way that we're thinking, 546 00:32:09,344 --> 00:32:12,065 then some of these other questions become easier to answer, 547 00:32:12,065 --> 00:32:17,433 because we have to value humans in a way, all humans. 548 00:32:17,433 --> 00:32:20,701 So we can't say that their property rights, 549 00:32:20,701 --> 00:32:23,331 or something like public domain, should come before that. 550 00:32:23,331 --> 00:32:24,347 And it's hard. 551 00:32:24,347 --> 00:32:27,931 It's hard for many of us who are all about access to things, 552 00:32:27,931 --> 00:32:29,292 access to documents, 553 00:32:29,292 --> 00:32:31,716 because it's against what we feel like we should do. 554 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:35,371 But in some ways I think that's the direction 555 00:32:35,371 --> 00:32:37,408 for certain kinds of content, 556 00:32:37,408 --> 00:32:43,660 because a lot of things were collected by anthropologists, for example, 557 00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:46,781 and some of those things-- books or photographs-- 558 00:32:46,781 --> 00:32:50,491 are now in "public domain," and uploaded into Commons. 559 00:32:51,661 --> 00:32:54,299 (moderator) Okay, so our session is over. 560 00:32:54,299 --> 00:32:57,975 There was one more question from that gentleman from the back, but... 561 00:32:57,975 --> 00:33:00,002 - (man) That's fine. - (moderator) Okay, sorry. 562 00:33:00,002 --> 00:33:03,038 I really apologize for this. So, thank you. 563 00:33:03,768 --> 00:33:05,466 We'll be back tomorrow, so. 564 00:33:05,466 --> 00:33:10,161 We have a meetup tomorrow, at 11:30, I think. 565 00:33:10,161 --> 00:33:12,779 If you want to talk more about Indigenous issues, come on out. 566 00:33:14,049 --> 00:33:16,030 (moderator) So... yeah! 567 00:33:16,030 --> 00:33:18,102 (applause)