1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,418 *RC3-Music* 2 00:00:07,418 --> 00:00:14,560 Herald: So here with us, Stefania Maurizi from Il Fatto Quotidian, she's an 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,120 investigative journalist, and Nils Melzer, who's the UN special rapporteur on 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:26,640 torture, and they are here tonight to dissect the Julian Assange and WikiLeaks 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:32,290 case. And so, the stage is yours. 6 00:00:32,290 --> 00:00:36,880 Nils Melzer: Yes, thank you. Stefania Maurizi: Absolutely, we are very 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,720 lucky to have the UN special rapporteur on torture Nils Melzer tonight, so we have 8 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,080 many questions that I expect. Question for you, and I hope you will have many 9 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,760 questions for us as well. So let's start Nils, about this case because I suppose 10 00:00:53,760 --> 00:01:00,480 you have hundreds of cases every year. And why do you focus on these with many cases 11 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:08,560 dealt with serious torture and all sorts of serious human rights violations? 12 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,880 Nils: Well, thanks Stefania, for the question because I think that's what many 13 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,520 people ask themselves. You know, how are you focusing on a person who's locked up 14 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,920 or was locked up at the time in an embassy with a cat and a skateboard? How can it be 15 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,800 torture, right? And to be honest with you, that's what I thought, in the beginning 16 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:33,040 because you're right, I received 10 to 15 requests of individuals, either by the 17 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,080 victims themselves, that have been tortured, or are exposed to the risk of 18 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:43,520 torture, or their lawyers or family members or NGOs. So, I get about 15 cases 19 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:49,440 per day on my desk and I can do maybe one. So, I really have to choose quite quickly. 20 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:55,680 And I remember I was writing up a report for the United Nations in December 2018, 21 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:01,520 so that I would have been actually three years ago, and I had this little message 22 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,280 coming up on my screen saying Julian Assange's lawyers are asking for your 23 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:13,920 protection. And I immediately have this emotional reaction of, Oh no, not this 24 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:20,560 one. Isn't this, this hacker and rapist and, you know, traitor? And I'm not going 25 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,680 to be manipulated by this guy. And so, I swept it off my screen and I continued 26 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:32,480 working on my report, and it took me three months until I, actually ... I got 27 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,560 contacted again by his lawyers in March 2019, about the month before he was 28 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,800 expelled from the embassy. And they sent me some medical reports from an 29 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:47,120 independent doctor, a US doctor, who was specialized in examining torture victims, 30 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,680 who had visited Guantánamo and so on, and she had visited him in the embassy, not as 31 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,720 an Assange activist at all. And she and she came to the conclusion, in that 32 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,120 medical opinion, that the Convention against Torture was being violated, that 33 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,280 his living conditions were inhumane. And I thought that if a person like this comes 34 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,550 to that conclusion, I probably better have a look at this case and feel 35 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:14,640 Stefania: sorry for you. Let's name her because she's very authoritative. 36 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,640 Nils: Yeah, it is Dr. Sandra Crosby is her name. So, she's one of the first doctors 37 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:26,880 ... independent doctors ... who visited Guantánamo and really someone who is very 38 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:33,680 highly regarded, and impartial. So, I looked at this, but I also received some 39 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,720 other evidence. And you know, Stefania, you have a very important role in making 40 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,120 that available through your Freedom of Information litigation, where you received 41 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,600 the release of some of the email correspondence between the Swedish 42 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:53,520 Prosecution Service and the UK Prosecution Service. Because at the base of the 43 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,000 Assange case in the beginning was these allegations of rape in Sweden and so on. 44 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:06,480 And this correspondence really cast some doubt on the legitimacy of this 45 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,880 prosecution, which I had never doubted before. And so, I started realizing 46 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,840 that I had a lot of prejudice against Assange, but I didn't really know what the 47 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:22,000 evidence was. And the more I looked into this case, the more I saw that it doesn't 48 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,720 hold up. There is really no evidence for this narrative. And I decided, well, I 49 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,880 think there's something wrong here. I can't rely on the governments. I can't 50 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:36,880 rely on what I find on the internet, just like this. And so, I really have to go and 51 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:44,080 look at this case myself and have decided to visit Julian Assange in London. I asked 52 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,000 for permission to visit him in the embassy. And as soon as I asked for 53 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,200 permission three days later they expel him, I might have sped it up. Also, I 54 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:58,160 fear, although we know today that this expulsion had been planned for months 55 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,200 before, but all of a sudden, everything went really, really fast. They expelled 56 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,680 him, and he was arrested by the British and put in a high security prison in 57 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,520 Belmarsh in London, where I visited him about three weeks ... four weeks later on 58 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:17,840 the 9th of May 2019 with two specialized doctors. I didn't expect to find torture, 59 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:22,880 to be quite honest with you. I expected to find a man who is, you know, a bit 60 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,840 stressed, who is in bad health because he's been in a room in the embassy for six 61 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:33,360 years and more. And that, he needed some medical treatments. I would make some 62 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:38,160 recommendations, and I was sure we are in Britain now. You know, he's in British 63 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,080 hands. This is a rule of law country. There's going to be due-process. They're 64 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:48,480 not going to extradite him to the US, and it's fine. But then what I realized is how 65 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:55,520 the authorities reacted to my comments and to my requests is that they didn't want to 66 00:05:55,520 --> 00:06:00,880 engage in a discussion on this case. They didn't want to listen to my assessment. 67 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:06,880 And both of the doctors that I took with me are very specialized people. One is the 68 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,280 psychiatrist, the other is the former president of the World Forensic Society. I 69 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:16,000 mean, he is a very established forensic doctor. They've been examining torture 70 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,560 victims for 30 years, and both of them, independently from each other, came to the 71 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,680 conclusion that Julian Assange showed all the symptoms that are typical for a victim 72 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:31,360 of psychological torture and psychological torture is not some kind of a light form 73 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,480 of torture. It is really extremely grave destabilization of the identity through 74 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,240 isolation, constant threat, constant stress, constant also confusion through 75 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,440 arbitrariness and the defamation, humiliation. All these elements together 76 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,880 are deliberately employed to destroy a person's stability and identity, and we 77 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:01,600 could actually measure neurological damage on Julian Assange already and cognitive 78 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,400 impairments that would, due to that constant stress and harassment that he was 79 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,040 exposed to in the embassy already and has been exposed to since then. So, we came to 80 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,560 a clear assessment. This person has been tortured, and when I confronted the 81 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:19,760 authorities with this, they basically shut down. They didn't want to engage with me 82 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:24,720 in a discussion. And the same happened with Sweden because Sweden had contributed 83 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:32,160 to this, and Ecuador and the US, all of these countries basically refused to 84 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,680 engage in a dialog with me on this. And now I have to point out I'm mandated by 85 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:43,680 states. I mean, I am the UN special rapporteur on torture. I'm not an NGO 86 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,320 person. I'm not an activist, I am not a journalist, and I am not belittling that. 87 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,240 I think that all of this is very important. But when you talk to states, as 88 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:58,400 someone who's been appointed by states to do exactly that, to transmit allegations 89 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,400 of torture to them, you would expect them to at least engage in a dialog. But they 90 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,760 refused. And when I saw that, I was sure now something's wrong here, and I started 91 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:13,920 really investigating this case. I looked deeply into the Swedish case. I looked 92 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:22,960 into the US case, where we saw that the US is accusing Assange of espionage. And 93 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,760 I really started digging into this case. And the more I did, the more dirt came 94 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:33,200 out, and not on the side of Assange, but on the side of the governments. And that's 95 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,120 really a long answer to your first question, why did I take on this case? 96 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:44,320 Because I felt well, if we have a case of torture in a rule-of-law, western 97 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:52,480 democracy like Sweden and Britain, and as the United Nations rapporteur, I cannot if 98 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,080 I have evidence for this, and I went there with two specialized doctors to look at 99 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:02,480 this. I mean, it's consolidated. I, you know, by law they have an obligation now 100 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,040 to investigate this and to, you know, to compensate him and prosecute those who are 101 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:12,320 culpable and so on. There is no discussion. But if democracies can afford 102 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:20,400 to simply ignore this, well, what does this mean for our society? And that was 103 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,200 the first thing. And the second thought was, and by the way, what does this mean 104 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,600 for press freedom? You know, what does this mean And I've never been a press 105 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:36,240 freedom specialist. But, I thought, well, here we have a person who is being 106 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:42,320 persecuted for the fact that he has disclosed, not even stolen, but he's 107 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:51,360 received and disclosed, published true information that proved serious crimes for 108 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:58,160 government officials, torture, murder, I mean, horrible stuff. I mean, very serious 109 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,680 crimes. If this becomes a crime, to bring the evidence for other crimes, and we see 110 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:09,520 that those criminals are not being prosecuted. But the witness, basically, 111 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:14,303 who informs the public, is being prosecuted and threatened with one hundred 112 00:10:14,303 --> 00:10:18,320 and seventy-five years in prison. What does this mean for people like you, 113 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,360 Stefania? You know, who are the investigative journalists, and if people 114 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:28,640 like you no longer can work... What does this mean for all the rest of us in 115 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:34,480 society? What does it mean? Do we have a right to know what the governments are 116 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,920 doing with the power that we give to them in a democracy, with the tax money we pay 117 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,520 to them? Or does it become a crime if we ask the wrong questions? I mean, this is 118 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,560 really, that's why this is so important. Assange isn't as important as any other 119 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:57,360 victim of torture. You know, they're all the same. But the case is a precedent case 120 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,640 that is of enormous importance for the functionality of democracy and the rule of 121 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:08,000 law. Stefania: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have 122 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:14,480 a book which is coming out in February and during the investigation on the case, I 123 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,560 was really impressed by the chapter on collateral murder, your analysis of the 124 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:28,160 brutal attack on civilians. And you analyze it from your point of view as an 125 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:36,320 expert on human rights law. I would like to ask you to do a quick analysis for our 126 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:44,640 public, to explain where the war crimes are involved. What are your conclusions 127 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,983 and so on. Nils: Right? OK, I'll quickly show the 128 00:11:47,983 --> 00:11:54,042 book just so people can see it. So, it comes out in February, and it's true that, 129 00:11:54,042 --> 00:11:59,754 you know, in the beginning, I explain my own role, obviously the role of WikiLeaks. 130 00:11:59,754 --> 00:12:05,978 But this collateral murder video was a very important publication. The first big 131 00:12:05,978 --> 00:12:13,406 publication of WikiLeaks is this video, that was recorded by an attack helicopter 132 00:12:13,406 --> 00:12:22,737 in Iraq, a US attack helicopter. It's a standard, you know, a tele-lens camera, 133 00:12:22,737 --> 00:12:29,257 and it shows how... How those helicopters are circling over Baghdad, and we see 134 00:12:29,257 --> 00:12:35,364 people walking in the streets, and then you can hear the radio communication, and 135 00:12:35,364 --> 00:12:41,305 the helicopters basically report that we have, you know, several people with 136 00:12:41,305 --> 00:12:47,400 AK-47s, which is a form of an automatic rifle, a Kalashnikov. And they ask for 137 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:53,953 permission to fire and then put on the image. We cannot see armed people, really. 138 00:12:53,953 --> 00:12:59,917 In the beginning, to admit the truth, we can see two people in a group of about 20 139 00:12:59,917 --> 00:13:05,051 who might be carrying a weapon. But then also, we have to know that at the time, in 140 00:13:05,051 --> 00:13:10,840 2007, when this was recorded in Iraq, in Baghdad, the US occupying forces had 141 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:17,278 authorized the Iraqi population to own kalashnikovs and to carry them, you know, 142 00:13:17,278 --> 00:13:22,224 to keep them at home, especially to protect themselves from the looting. 143 00:13:22,224 --> 00:13:27,481 Because when after the invasion of the British and the US, the rule of law broke 144 00:13:27,481 --> 00:13:32,484 down in Iraq, and they needed people to be able to defend themselves. So, they were 145 00:13:32,484 --> 00:13:36,277 actually allowed to carry that type of weapon. And so, they (the helicopter gun- 146 00:13:36,277 --> 00:13:41,557 ship) received permission to fire. And then what we can see is that a group of 147 00:13:41,557 --> 00:13:47,617 about 10 people is just being massacred. They are in civilian clothing, they are 148 00:13:47,617 --> 00:13:52,781 walking relaxed on the street. So, they're clearly not preparing any attack or 149 00:13:52,781 --> 00:13:57,212 something. We know that there is some, some US soldiers from the of radio 150 00:13:57,212 --> 00:14:01,820 communication. We can tell that there is some US soldiers on the ground somewhere 151 00:14:01,820 --> 00:14:08,780 close to there, but nobody is preparing an attack. You know, and so we see how these 152 00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:14,434 10 people are being massacred. And then we hear those nasty comments by soldiers 153 00:14:14,434 --> 00:14:19,539 like, you know, "good shooting" and "you see these bloody bastards" and these types 154 00:14:19,539 --> 00:14:28,360 of remarks. But the most troubling thing is that then we have the helicopter makes 155 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,612 a couple of circles, and they report what they see on the ground, all the dead 156 00:14:33,612 --> 00:14:37,810 bodies and then some of the wounded people who are crawling around and from the 157 00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:42,922 conversations, we understand that the soldiers know that it's prohibited to 158 00:14:42,922 --> 00:14:48,980 attack wounded people. And I want to, you know, I've been a law of armed conflict 159 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:53,290 expert on the use of force for the International Committee of the Red Cross. 160 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:58,128 I've been teaching this at university level for more than 10 years.I have 161 00:14:58,128 --> 00:15:05,069 analyzed hundreds of combat operations as an expert. So, I can easily see that these 162 00:15:05,069 --> 00:15:10,352 soldiers are aware that they cannot lawfully attack those wounded people and 163 00:15:10,352 --> 00:15:15,447 that also in the law of war, you cannot attack people who rescue the wounded as 164 00:15:15,447 --> 00:15:20,175 long as they're not fighting themselves. And then we see a minibus coming with 165 00:15:20,175 --> 00:15:25,505 civilians trying to rescue this man. And this man we're talking about is a wounded 166 00:15:25,505 --> 00:15:29,760 journalist, is a Reuters journalist, who was wounded in that attack. And the 167 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,320 soldiers, the US soldiers asked for permission to fire on these people, and 168 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:41,229 they received permission. And then they basically. You know, massacre, the wounded 169 00:15:41,229 --> 00:15:49,692 person and the rescuers with the machine gun and there is even in the minibus, the 170 00:15:49,692 --> 00:15:55,100 two children of the driver that are gravely wounded. So, I mean, all of this, 171 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:59,888 this is a clear war crime. When you deliberately attack a wounded person who's 172 00:15:59,888 --> 00:16:05,512 no longer participating in fighting or rescue personnel, that's only trying to 173 00:16:05,512 --> 00:16:12,477 rescue someone, that is, without any question, a war crime. In the first scene, 174 00:16:12,477 --> 00:16:18,529 I think we have to be fair that these helicopters are circling at about one and 175 00:16:18,529 --> 00:16:24,312 a half miles distance. The video we see is recorded by a tele-objective lens. So, the 176 00:16:24,312 --> 00:16:28,951 soldiers are not that close. When they look out of the window, they cannot see 177 00:16:28,951 --> 00:16:33,214 any details. It is too far away. So, they have to rely exclusively on that picture. 178 00:16:33,214 --> 00:16:37,651 And you also have to be fair that they can see this picture only once in real time, 179 00:16:37,651 --> 00:16:42,765 and they have to decide immediately. They cannot, like us, rewind it 100 times and 180 00:16:42,765 --> 00:16:49,205 watch it again from the armchair. So, all of this being said, though, you know the 181 00:16:49,205 --> 00:16:55,578 first attack, I think in the best case, it's a very sloppy mistake. And I don't, 182 00:16:55,578 --> 00:17:00,335 you know, I think it's already this crosses the line to a war crime, but this 183 00:17:00,335 --> 00:17:04,868 would be for a court to decide. But the second attack, where they attack a clearly 184 00:17:04,868 --> 00:17:10,790 wounded person and from the conversations we know that the soldiers know that, you 185 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:16,514 know, they say, OK, he's wounded, and then they're saying, you know, someone is 186 00:17:16,514 --> 00:17:21,075 coming to pick them up and picking up the weapons can we fire? The law of war is 187 00:17:21,075 --> 00:17:27,244 very clear. This is absolutely prohibited and what happened there is a clear war 188 00:17:27,244 --> 00:17:34,636 crime and the scandal is that everybody knows that the soldiers knew that. I mean, 189 00:17:34,636 --> 00:17:40,796 the Department of Defense in the US knew that, the US government knew that, the 190 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:47,003 public knows it. I mean, it's obvious when you watched the film, but it's, and we 191 00:17:47,003 --> 00:17:52,127 have video evidence, ... but nobody has ever been prosecuted for that. That's the 192 00:17:52,127 --> 00:17:57,399 first scandal. The second scandal.. Stefania: Let me help you. Why no one has 193 00:17:57,399 --> 00:18:03,878 prosecuted. Why there was no International Criminal Court investigation. Nothing. 194 00:18:03,878 --> 00:18:09,255 Nils: Well because, the US is not party to the ICC treaty. Of course, they have not, 195 00:18:09,255 --> 00:18:13,632 .... You know, they have made sure that no one can prosecute them for war crimes. And 196 00:18:13,632 --> 00:18:20,914 also now, legally, any country in the world could, and not even could, but would 197 00:18:20,914 --> 00:18:25,751 have to prosecute these people as soon as they are on their territory because war 198 00:18:25,751 --> 00:18:30,196 crimes are so-called universal jurisdiction crimes, which means if I 199 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:35,310 commit a war crime anywhere in the world, no matter what nationality I am, no matter 200 00:18:35,310 --> 00:18:40,680 where I am, the country where I am has to arrest me and to prosecute me or to 201 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,216 extradite me to a country that will prosecute me. That's what the Geneva 202 00:18:44,216 --> 00:18:47,990 Conventions say. That's what the International Criminal Law says and not 203 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:53,933 only the ICC treaty, but actually even the Geneva Conventions that the US has 204 00:18:53,933 --> 00:19:01,958 ratified. So, but what the reason is clear is a political reason because no one dares 205 00:19:01,958 --> 00:19:06,773 to prosecute a US soldier. If the US doesn't do it. Now, to me, the most 206 00:19:06,773 --> 00:19:12,480 troubling thing is that the US doesn't do it because it's in their interest to 207 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:19,809 prosecute people who violate the law of war. Because we know that the discipline 208 00:19:19,809 --> 00:19:26,920 in an army diminishes very quickly when you tolerate people committing war crimes. 209 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,507 And so, it's very, very important for, and even for just the hygiene of the armed 210 00:19:32,507 --> 00:19:36,882 forces, that they prosecute these things. Now, not to say, you know, that the 211 00:19:36,882 --> 00:19:41,056 humanitarian reasons and the human rights of these people who have been murdered and 212 00:19:41,056 --> 00:19:45,524 their families that don't receive compensation, and then it also means that 213 00:19:45,524 --> 00:19:51,210 these types of operations proliferate. You know, if you don't stop it like this, this 214 00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:56,374 becomes the normal modus operandi. And that's exactly what many veterans of the 215 00:19:56,374 --> 00:20:00,975 Iraq War have said, that this is not collateral. Murder is not an exception. 216 00:20:00,975 --> 00:20:06,814 This was the standard procedure. This happened every day, in that period. And 217 00:20:06,814 --> 00:20:13,422 so, that's really a major scandal. But you know, the second thing I want to say is 218 00:20:13,422 --> 00:20:18,323 the even bigger scandal is some people are being prosecuted. And that's the 219 00:20:18,323 --> 00:20:24,766 whistleblower that actually leaked this information and the journalists who 220 00:20:24,766 --> 00:20:33,597 published it. So, that is really turning the world of justice upside down when 221 00:20:33,597 --> 00:20:40,400 murderers are walking free and the witness, you know, who witnessed the 222 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:48,480 murder or brings the (...). He would get one hundred and seventy-five years in 223 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,520 prison. That's enormous. That's a bit, ... that's more than any war criminal in The 224 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,640 Hague has ever received. That's what we're looking at, and, you know, when you were 225 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:05,360 asking, well, you know what, what is Assange actually being accused of? When 226 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:10,800 you look at the indictment, it's all about receiving this type of information and 227 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,040 publishing this type of information. That's what I mean, you tell me, but 228 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,672 that's what an investigative journalist does. No? 229 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:23,040 Stefania: Politically, absolutely. This is what we do on a regular, ... on a daily 230 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:28,000 basis. Nils: Yeah. And so now, if I ask you an 231 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:35,360 honest question, Stefania, if I gave you today a USB stick with "Collateral Murder 232 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:45,120 Video #2", and another 250,000 diplomatic cables, would you publish them? I mean, 10 233 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,560 years ago, you probably would have. Because at the time, even the New York 234 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,920 Times, The Guardian and the Spiegel and Le Monde and everybody, you know, wanted to 235 00:21:53,920 --> 00:22:00,240 co-publish this together with Assange. But today? They're not even, they're not even 236 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:06,320 really reporting on what's happening here. And, you know, if I ask you, do you feel 237 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,440 intimidated by what's happening to Assange? Would you feel comfortable 238 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,960 publishing these things today? Stefania: I do feel really intimidated. 239 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,560 Nils: Yeah, Stefania: I think I would approach this 240 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,464 with serious, serious concern, ... Nils: Yup, 241 00:22:23,464 --> 00:22:28,000 Stefania: of not being protected by anything at the end of the day because I 242 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,680 have seen, in the last 13 years which I have been covering and together in this 243 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,720 case, that Julian Assange and the WikiLeaks journalists have tried 244 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:45,280 everything. They have tried to use the laws. They have tried to ask for asylum. 245 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:52,080 They have tried to look for protection by the media community. They have tried 246 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,120 everything. And with the exception of the UN authorities, the U.N. Special 247 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:03,280 Rapporteur on Torture and the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention, they have 248 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,840 received no protection whatsoever. So, I would be terrified, honestly. 249 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:14,800 Nils: Yes. And I think this is the type of question we have to ask ourselves. It's 250 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,880 not about will Assange be extradited or not. Yes, it's important, but it's already 251 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:27,760 working. You see, the example has already been set for the last 10 years. This man 252 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:34,080 has not been free. He's been on the run from a country that's accusing him for 253 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:39,040 telling the truth about its crimes. That's really what's happening here because 254 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:44,560 nothing else that he's accused of has been proven and that they've tried hard. 255 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,440 They've invested millions in trying to create the narrative. But everything else 256 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,920 from rape to hacking to, you know, treason, all these things. There's not 257 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,760 that there's no proof whatsoever. So, all of this is constructed to push him into a 258 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,200 corner, but also to intimidate people like you. And I think that's that's what we 259 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,240 have to understand. That's the effect of this. Yes, it's on Assange and his health 260 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,320 and his person, and that's important for the individual. But my point of this being 261 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,040 a general, in the case of general importance, is proven by your reaction. 262 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,360 And you, I know, are one of the more courageous investigative journalists, and 263 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:33,280 you've been fighting, you know, the secrecy for very long through your FOIA 264 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,800 litigation that has been so valuable in producing, you know, evidence. And we know 265 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:44,000 that, you know, a lot of key evidence is still being kept secret by these states. 266 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:51,040 And so, that's what we're risking to lose, this access to the truth that is so 267 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:57,840 essential for democracy. Stefania: Absolutely. Definitely. You 268 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:05,760 know, we know that is precisely what they want, and that's why we had to fight hard 269 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:14,880 because it's about the society we want in the free allowed to go out to the .... If 270 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:21,280 we allowed them to go ahead with this persecution, with this extradition, they 271 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:27,760 will .... It will be the end of the press freedom ..., it would be the end of 272 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:33,120 investigative journalism and the right of the public to know. it's not just about 273 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:38,960 us, it's not just about the investigative journalism. It's about the public's right 274 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,280 to know. I mean, Nils: And I think it's important, you know, I know, that to many 275 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,840 people, this might sound alarmist. You know, oh, this is exaggerated. Oh, come 276 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,040 on, this is just Assange, and he's going to be prosecuted and everything's going to 277 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:58,560 be fine. No, you know, when you look in history, that's exactly how powerful 278 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:04,240 states have behaved and dictators, and you know, for creating dictatorships. You 279 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:12,560 know, you take someone, and you destroy their reputation. You accuse them of, you 280 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,760 know, stupid things and or even serious crimes, you know, but they cannot be 281 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,360 proven. And you destroy their reputation. And then when the whole public is 282 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:28,400 convinced that, you know, this is a bad guy. Then you set an example with "him". 283 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,640 On press freedom, but nobody cares about "him" because I think it's just him and 284 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,000 nobody likes him because his reputation has been destroyed. But the problem is the 285 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,640 precedent case can be applied to anybody, afterwards. And that's exactly what 286 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,200 they're trying to do. And I think it's very, very important that we are aware of 287 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:55,280 this. It's not whether you like or dislike Assange, it's whether you like or dislike 288 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,760 the rights that he has and that you have and that everybody else has, which is the 289 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,760 right of freedom of expression. And that's not just the freedom of expression is not 290 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,960 just the right to say anything you want and think anything you want, but also to 291 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,400 receive that information that the public has the rights under the freedom of 292 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:23,200 expression, to hear and to read, and to see the evidence of government misconduct. 293 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,520 And that's what they're trying to suppress. Now, if you say this is a 294 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:34,400 conspiracy theory, look, it's very obvious, the torture, the murder of 295 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,920 civilians, of journalists or collateral murder and other documents has been 296 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,400 proven. It's not something that the government has said is not true. No, they 297 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,880 have never, .... They have never claimed that anything is not true that WikiLeaks 298 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:57,440 has proven. So, actually by law, those officials have to be prosecuted, and they 299 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:03,600 should spend, you know, many years in prison. Some of them. So, but they will 300 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,840 say, but I received orders from up, and it goes higher up the chain of responsibility 301 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:16,240 doesn't end in the attack helicopter. It ends somewhere in a government building, 302 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,680 in a nice little office with or a big office, rather with thick carpets. And 303 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,080 that's what they're afraid of because the commander is responsible for this. So, 304 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,920 that's why they cut this, and they intimidate everybody, and they 305 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,120 criminalize. It's basically it's a re- classified information, and if you publish 306 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:40,880 it, you will be punished and re-classified for reasons of national security. But 307 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,520 that's not true. They're classifying it for their own impunity. That's what they 308 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:51,040 want to protect. And it's natural. You know, if you accuse someone of murder in 309 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:56,640 court, and you allow him to classify all the evidence against him and to make it a 310 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,240 crime to disclose it, he will do it, for sure. So let's be realistic, you know, 311 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,920 governments are not good or bad. They're just normal human beings. And if they make 312 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,160 a mistake, they want to cover it up like everybody else. So, that's the natural 313 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:16,880 behavior. That's why we really have to insist on transparency for the powerful. 314 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:24,080 You know, we have to insist on oversight on the separation of power. We have to 315 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,760 insist that it be treated as a serious crime to circumvent these checks and 316 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:36,800 balances because it threatens the very core of our society, of our democracy and 317 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:43,680 of our civil liberties. And when you look at the legal proceedings that Assange has 318 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,680 been exposed to, I'm not going to bore you with a lot of legal technicalities, but 319 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,440 I've really investigated every single legal proceeding from the Swedish 320 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:58,400 accusations or, you know, allegations of sexual misconduct where I was able to read 321 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,280 original documents because I do speak Swedish, and you know, luckily I had all 322 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:12,880 those documents that you also got to hand on it through the FOIA litigation. And I 323 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,560 don't know what happened between Assange and these women. But what I do know is 324 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,280 that the government in Sweden never cared about that. They clearly from the 325 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:27,520 beginning wanted to create a rape narrative and maintain it and to avoid, 326 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:34,320 you know, him getting a chance, a fair day in court to actually deal with this. The 327 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,360 narrative that he evaded these accusations that he was hiding in the embassy because 328 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:45,520 of the sexual allegations is false. He offered to come to Sweden. He wanted to 329 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,840 testify in this case, but he was afraid that the Swedish would send him to the 330 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,200 US without a legal proceeding, as they had done with other people before. And he 331 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,480 just wanted guarantees from them, and the Swedish didn't want to give those 332 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,840 guarantees, which is really something that I can tell from international experience. 333 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,800 That's a warning. If the country doesn't want to give you those guarantees, you 334 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,340 better not go there. Stefania: Yeah, 335 00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:17,360 Nils: He was right not to go. And they really abused those legal institutions to 336 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,440 keep him in limbo, you know, suspected of rape, but unable to defend himself. And 337 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:29,520 so, his reputation suffered because of that. And then he continued, obviously 338 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,320 with, you know, the economic pressures on Ecuador once they had a new president, 339 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:40,560 Moreno. The US put Ecuador under pressure, and we have written evidence of Congress 340 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,768 writing to the president of Ecuador, saying, Look, we would be happy to support 341 00:31:44,768 --> 00:31:50,971 you economically and to, you know, to help you bring up a country that the country's 342 00:31:50,971 --> 00:31:57,055 situation, the economic situation to financially support you. But there is one, 343 00:31:57,055 --> 00:32:03,195 not several, there's one problem, and that's the situation of Assange. And we 344 00:32:03,195 --> 00:32:08,684 need him to be handed over, so we can start helping you. So, that, ... we have a 345 00:32:08,684 --> 00:32:16,480 letter of October 2018 of US Congress to President Moreno. And from then on, it was 346 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:22,751 clear and Moreno was working together with the British and the US to expel him from 347 00:32:22,751 --> 00:32:28,654 the embassy. So, that was done without any rule of law proceeding. You know, he had 348 00:32:28,654 --> 00:32:33,603 official asylum, and it was just taken from him along with his nationality. He 349 00:32:33,603 --> 00:32:39,339 had no right to access a court to have a lawyer defending him. It was just from one 350 00:32:39,339 --> 00:32:44,520 hour to the other. He was expelled, and the UK behaved just the same way. When you 351 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,617 think the UK is the quintessential rule of law country, which I can, you know, this 352 00:32:49,617 --> 00:32:56,428 was my conviction as a professor in the UK university. And then you see that we have 353 00:32:56,428 --> 00:33:02,908 a judge who is insulting him publicly in a court hearing where Assange had said 354 00:33:02,908 --> 00:33:07,464 nothing, except I plead not guilty. And then we have another judge who's in charge 355 00:33:07,464 --> 00:33:12,719 for the first couple of months for the extradition procedure and her husband had 356 00:33:12,719 --> 00:33:17,763 been exposed by WikiLeaks. I mean, it's there's a conflict of interest. It's just, 357 00:33:17,763 --> 00:33:24,120 you know, even it's a perception of bias that you cannot afford in a democracy. And 358 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,428 then we have, you know, him being put in a high security prison. Although he's not 359 00:33:29,428 --> 00:33:33,549 serving a sentence for two years, he's been in Belmarsh. He's not serving a 360 00:33:33,549 --> 00:33:38,729 sentence. He's just being held there in extradition detention. And normally people 361 00:33:38,729 --> 00:33:43,394 should be allowed to work and to be with their family and maybe to have an ankle 362 00:33:43,394 --> 00:33:48,063 bracelet. Or they think Assange's case because he has sought asylum in the 363 00:33:48,063 --> 00:33:51,904 Ecuadorian embassy before, maybe they put him in house arrest like they did with 364 00:33:51,904 --> 00:33:56,862 Pinochet. But you will never. There's no legal basis to put someone in a high 365 00:33:56,862 --> 00:34:02,070 security prison. They do this with him because they want to silence him because 366 00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:08,243 they want to intimidate you, journalists. That's the reason. And you know, when you 367 00:34:08,243 --> 00:34:12,580 see this happening..., Stefania: Let me stop you and ask you 368 00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:21,029 something very, very serious, like the CIA attempt to kidnap or poisoning him, which 369 00:34:21,029 --> 00:34:28,361 is, I mean, this received so little consideration. If we, ... I mean, I was 370 00:34:28,361 --> 00:34:35,407 really upset about realizing how lethal it was, considering the legal process in the 371 00:34:35,407 --> 00:34:38,040 UK. Nils: Absolutely. We've had we've had 372 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,375 indicators before we thought that the security company that was working for the 373 00:34:42,375 --> 00:34:46,768 Ecuadorian Embassy to guard the Ecuadorian Embassy, U.C. Global was actually behind 374 00:34:46,768 --> 00:34:51,430 the back of the Ecuadorian government cooperating with the CIA and, you know, 375 00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:58,802 streaming video feeds from surveillance cameras, from the embassy to the CIA 24-7. 376 00:34:58,802 --> 00:35:06,112 But not only that, we also had indicators before, former employees of that company 377 00:35:06,112 --> 00:35:13,277 testifying in court that, you know, there were assassination plans for, you know, 378 00:35:13,277 --> 00:35:19,605 against Assange by the CIA. And this was then confirmed also by this Yahoo 379 00:35:19,605 --> 00:35:26,020 disclosure in September this year, where more than 30 agents or former agents of 380 00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:32,760 the CIA allegedly confirmed that there were plans to kidnap or Assange to, you 381 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,925 know, disappear him into black sites or even to assassinate him was considered at 382 00:35:38,925 --> 00:35:46,160 least, but then found to be too dangerous. But the plan was to poison him. Now, I 383 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,126 mean, I'll just take another case, Navalny, right, that everybody knows, you 384 00:35:51,126 --> 00:35:56,657 know, and says that, allegedly, the Russian government tried to poison him. 385 00:35:56,657 --> 00:36:01,950 Well, that's what we're talking about. But you know, it's the same thing. It's just 386 00:36:01,950 --> 00:36:07,200 that in Nawalny's case, and rightly so, you know, everybody is is is protesting 387 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,844 and of the western governments are very courageously, you know, imposing sanctions 388 00:36:12,844 --> 00:36:18,400 and so on. But when the same thing is being planned by the CIA against Assange, 389 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:24,842 nobody speaks out. And that's that's what I found, this kind of hypocrisy that we 390 00:36:24,842 --> 00:36:31,317 have in Western governments is just so disappointing. It's scandalous because it 391 00:36:31,317 --> 00:36:37,207 threatens the foundations of what our societies are. And if someone has 392 00:36:37,207 --> 00:36:41,566 committed a crime, yes, arrest and try him, you know, bring the evidence or 393 00:36:41,566 --> 00:36:45,648 acquit him. But that's that's the end of the story. But they don't know what to 394 00:36:45,648 --> 00:36:49,680 accuse him of because he hasn't committed any crime. So, they invent these stupid 395 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,299 stories. You know, he's not feeding his cat, and he's playing football in the 396 00:36:53,299 --> 00:36:56,742 embassy and all these stupid headlines that you see. I mean, the BBC, you know, I 397 00:36:56,742 --> 00:37:01,433 mean, they're reporting on these types of things, but they're they're not, you know, 398 00:37:01,433 --> 00:37:06,107 considerate enough about their own profession as journalists to report on 399 00:37:06,107 --> 00:37:10,571 what's actually happening here, that this is about criminalizing investigative 400 00:37:10,571 --> 00:37:17,608 journalism. This should be really at the heart of the mission of a BBC or a New 401 00:37:17,608 --> 00:37:23,520 York Times to be very, very outspoken about this. And I'm convinced that if the 402 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,622 mainstream media, the main outlets in the Anglo-Saxon world, let's say the New York 403 00:37:28,622 --> 00:37:35,705 Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian and the BBC, if they together deliberately 404 00:37:35,705 --> 00:37:43,158 launched an effort to condemn this persecution on their front pages and the 405 00:37:43,158 --> 00:37:49,399 main news hour, you know, for one week straight. This would be finished because 406 00:37:49,399 --> 00:37:55,338 the government has nothing in their hands in terms of truth. All they can do is 407 00:37:55,338 --> 00:38:00,065 orchestrate a secret trial in Alexandria, an espionage court where they tape the 408 00:38:00,065 --> 00:38:06,520 doors and lock the windows and nobody is allowed to witness what's going on, and 409 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,290 then they condemn him for something and sentence him to 175 years in prison. And 410 00:38:11,290 --> 00:38:15,332 nobody, even the defense counsel, doesn't have access to the evidence. I mean, 411 00:38:15,332 --> 00:38:21,702 that's that's a show trial that's not a rule of law proceeding. And I think the 412 00:38:21,702 --> 00:38:25,470 societies in the West and around the world, but they're talking about Western 413 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:32,119 democracies now. They deserve, you know, governments and judiciaries that respect 414 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:39,372 those principles and respect the law. And it's really very worrying. That's why I 415 00:38:39,372 --> 00:38:46,285 put my whole professional weight and personal credibility into this case 416 00:38:46,285 --> 00:38:52,260 because I think this is about our rights, it's about it's about the rights of our 417 00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:57,947 children to know what their governments are doing with the money and the power 418 00:38:57,947 --> 00:39:03,453 that they give to the governments. And if we allow it to become a crime to tell the 419 00:39:03,453 --> 00:39:08,263 truth, we will be living in a tyranny that's not exaggerated. 420 00:39:08,263 --> 00:39:14,954 Stefania: Absolutely. I mean, we read this about something we really care about. We 421 00:39:14,954 --> 00:39:21,404 realized that this case is crucial, and we cannot lose it. We absolutely don't want 422 00:39:21,404 --> 00:39:28,425 to lose it. Nils, let me ask you one last question, then we will ask for the public 423 00:39:28,425 --> 00:39:35,847 asking question to ask. Well, this case is about Julian Assange, of course, and it is 424 00:39:35,847 --> 00:39:41,640 all about the WikiLeaks journalists because they have at least (...), for now, 425 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,557 he's in prison, but they will be the next. Let's mentioned Sarah Harrison, for 426 00:39:47,557 --> 00:39:55,001 example, the former WikiLeaks section editor, who flew to Hong Kong. (...) or 427 00:39:55,001 --> 00:40:03,633 many, many others. Kristie Larson, Joseph Farrell. I have the Freedom of Information 428 00:40:03,633 --> 00:40:10,128 case in the UK, and it is about these three WikiLeaks journalists former and 429 00:40:10,128 --> 00:40:15,306 current WikiLeaks journalists. And Scotland Yard, is doing whatever it can to 430 00:40:15,306 --> 00:40:22,617 deny me access to these documents using anti-terror laws again or for denying me 431 00:40:22,617 --> 00:40:29,956 access to these documents. I have been litigating this case about the WikiLeaks 432 00:40:29,956 --> 00:40:35,351 journalists and Julian Assange for over six years. So, what do you think is going 433 00:40:35,351 --> 00:40:40,954 to happen in this case now? What's next? Nils: Well, I think the first thing I want 434 00:40:40,954 --> 00:40:46,300 is to finish this case. Set a precedent. You know, with this man that most of the 435 00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:51,265 public still somehow despises because they have been deceived and poisoned by this 436 00:40:51,265 --> 00:40:57,920 narrative that has been created about him. But once this is done, clearly they will, 437 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:05,920 they will continue. This is not the end of it. This is the beginning of a new era 438 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,200 where journalists will be prosecuted for telling the truth about government 439 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,080 misconduct. Because then the precedent has been set. And you know, it's very 440 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:22,400 important as we speak and as we observe this case, all ready countries are 441 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,760 adapting their laws to this new future. We see that in Australia, we see that in the 442 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:34,880 UK, where the Official Secrets Act is being tightened. Basically, we see that, 443 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,520 well, the interpretation of the Espionage Act in the US. Sweden has just passed a 444 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:47,360 law on foreign espionage where it becomes a crime. Sweden used to be the safe haven 445 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,280 of press freedom, which is why Julian Assange was in Sweden in the first place, 446 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,080 In 2010. We wanted to establish WikiLeaks there because it was the safe haven for 447 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:03,040 press freedom. Sweden has passed a law just two months ago by which from January 448 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:11,520 2023, it will be a crime in Sweden to disclose classified information that does 449 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:16,720 not even threaten national security. That's only prejudicial to the relations 450 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,920 of Sweden with a different country or an international organization. I mean, it's 451 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:27,520 ridiculous. I mean, that's the standard is so low. It's basically, though, the 452 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,880 diplomatic cables, something that's just embarrassing before the relations of 453 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,000 Sweden with Austria, for example. You know, I'm just taking by random example. 454 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:44,160 It's just embarrassing. That's sufficient. It becomes a crime. So, what we have to 455 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,880 realize is this is, ... Now states are building a system not only in the US, the 456 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:57,040 UK, the Anglo-Saxon world throughout, but also even now, the allied countries are 457 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:03,280 building a system where it becomes a crime to tell the truth. It's. Really high time 458 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:10,160 for us to ring the alarm bell and to stop this, to insist that we have a right to 459 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:15,360 know. Stefania: Absolutely. What do you expect 460 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,280 from the legal process in the UK? What do you expect the next? 461 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:29,120 Nils: Well, unfortunately, I cannot expect justice. I was hopeful. I mean, I am 462 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:35,120 pessimistically hopeful. If I can allow to say that the High Court would refuse 463 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:41,200 extradition. But I sensed that exactly what happened, was going to happen. I said 464 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:47,840 it before publicly, and it's happened exactly as I presumed it would. I think 465 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:55,760 that the UK judiciary, unfortunately, is unable to ensure respect for the law here 466 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,880 and that they will basically wave this extradition through, and they will try 467 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:06,640 perhaps to extend this proceeding another year or two. Because for the US, it's not 468 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:12,320 urgent for Assange to be extradited if he dies in prison in the UK, all the better 469 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,480 for the US, so they don't have to deal with it. What they want is to set the 470 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,600 precedent that everybody knows, including yourselves, Stefania, that this is what's 471 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,560 going to happen to you if you ever mess with our secrets, our dirty secrets. And 472 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,320 so, I don't know exactly what's going to play out and how it's going to play out. 473 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:37,520 But in the big picture, these states have not persecuted Assange for 10 years for 474 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:43,680 tens of millions of dollars to let him off the hook any time soon. So, the only 475 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:49,840 chance he has, and that's the very real chance, if public opinion changes and if 476 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,480 the main media organizations change their view. As I said before, this is going to 477 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,200 be over. This is just like waking up from a nightmare. It's going to be over. But if 478 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:09,440 they don't, we're in for a long nightmare. Stefania: Thank you, Nils, let's open the 479 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,999 question from the public. 480 00:45:12,999 --> 00:45:19,040 Herald: Yeah. There are More and more questions coming up here. And let me start 481 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,800 by, ... one, that's more like the beginning of the whole story as to what 482 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:30,880 exactly did you expect, or who do you exactly expect to respond in the first 483 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,280 instance, when torture in UK is concerned? Like before you send letters, you would 484 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:42,800 expect kind of a maybe a police showing up or something like that. What would you 485 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:48,000 normally expect? Nils: Well, if I receive allegations of 486 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,960 torture, I transmit them, I mean, the first thing that happens, I look whether 487 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,280 they are credible. You know, if they are, if they're not credible, obviously, I 488 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:02,720 will. I will. I will try to consolidate. Maybe I will. My team will call the person 489 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:06,240 or organization that submitted the information and try to consolidate it to 490 00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,840 make sure that it is credible. It doesn't have to be proven, but it has to be 491 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,760 credible. If that's the case, I will transmit it to the government. And if it's 492 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,400 an urgent case, you know, if it's about preventing torture, it's a historical case 493 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,120 that happened 15 years ago, and we're just investigating it's not very urgent, and we 494 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,360 can take time. I mean, you know, reasonable timeframe. But if it's very 495 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:33,840 urgent, someone is about to be executed or transferred or extradited. Then within 24 496 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,960 hours, I can write a letter and transmit it to the foreign minister of. And that's 497 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,280 your question. Who will actually will, ... my interlocutor as the UN rapporteur is 498 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,680 always the foreign minister of the country of the UN member state through the 499 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:54,160 diplomatic mission in Geneva. And so, they will then have to distribute it to the 500 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,840 proper authorities in their country. If it's an allegation about a police station, 501 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:04,000 that will have to, you know, transmit it to the police and so on. But depending on 502 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,840 the country and the precise allegation, it will be different authorities. It could be 503 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:13,280 a migration center or something like this. But for me, it's very it's a diplomatic 504 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,080 protocol. I always have to go through the Foreign Ministry and they will then have 505 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:23,840 to initiate those investigations and inside the country. 506 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,960 Herald: OK, thank you very much. The Next question would be, will Assange be 507 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,920 able to appeal to the European Court of Justice? How long do you estimate Julian 508 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,320 will stay in prison until the highest applicable court would publish a decision? 509 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,480 And are there any moves that can still be made from a lawyer's point of perspective? 510 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,320 Well, I'm clearly not his lawyer. But, you know, and his legal team would have to 511 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,080 speak to the strategy. So, I can't. I'm not representing him, obviously. But 512 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,800 clearly, yes, at some point you will be able, as soon as the last instance 513 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:07,040 decision has been validated by the last instance of court in the U.K., then this 514 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,680 decision can be appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, not the European 515 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,640 Court of Justice, that's an EU court, but the European Court of Human Rights would 516 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:23,920 be that instance. They can also, already now, appeal to that court for preliminary 517 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,400 protection, for example, to release him from prison and to house arrest or 518 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,200 something like this. But that's a bit technical. But yes, at the end there is an 519 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,600 opportunity to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. And the question of 520 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,720 how long it will last really depends on so many factors. What's the strategy of the 521 00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:46,400 lawyers? What's the strategy of the court? You know, how long does the court take to 522 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:51,440 decide, after a hearing? Do they take two weeks or do they take four months? It's up 523 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,880 to them. And so, it's, ... I can't, you know, I can't. But it could last anywhere 524 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,720 from at least one year to, you know, another three years or something like 525 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,240 this. Stefania: I just want to add one important 526 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:09,440 info about this European Court of Human Rights because according to the documents 527 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:16,800 I was able to get from my Freedom of Information litigation, the UK authorities 528 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,840 were discussing with the Swedish authorities an attempt to extradite Julian 529 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:29,520 Assange without allowing him to apply to the European Court of Human Rights and 530 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:36,240 obtaining the protective measure. So, it was an attempt to extradite him before he 531 00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:40,800 could get a protective measure. Do you think that means that they could play the 532 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:47,600 same game for the extradition to the US? Nils: It's conceivable, yes. The problem 533 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:54,000 is that normally a judgment of the, ... or an appeal to the European Court of Human 534 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:00,160 Rights is not, ... does not suspend the validity of the national decision. So if 535 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,640 the Supreme Court of the UK allows the extradition, for example, and Assange 536 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,760 appeals that then he can still be extradited, unless the European Court of 537 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:19,840 Human Rights orders preliminary measures, you know, that suspend that the validity 538 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:25,040 of that ruling. So but they still have to decide that. And obviously, between the 539 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:30,000 decision of the Supreme Court and the issuing of that preliminary protective 540 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:36,880 measure, there will be a few days. And so in this time, you know, they can try to 541 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:44,080 send him out. So, it's very important that his lawyers react in time and perhaps even 542 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:49,440 provisionally ask for measures like this. But again, you know, his legal team would 543 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,080 be better placed to answer those questions. 544 00:50:52,800 --> 00:51:00,880 Herald: OK, thank you very much. I hope you might answer the next question. What 545 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:05,520 is the government's justification for keeping Assange in Belmarsh? And what 546 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:12,560 happens to other high, or high risk, persons above who have a flight risk that 547 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,415 are on remand in the UK? Nils: Well, the government doesn't just, 548 00:51:16,415 --> 00:51:21,537 ... I mean, they just say he's a flight risk. OK. Well, yes, there is a precedent 549 00:51:21,537 --> 00:51:25,523 that he's basically his, look, ... you know, he's asked for asylum in the 550 00:51:25,523 --> 00:51:30,704 Ecuadorian embassy. So now clearly, you know, in my view, even the whole 551 00:51:30,704 --> 00:51:35,713 extradition proceeding is illegitimate and illegal. You know, for various reasons 552 00:51:35,713 --> 00:51:39,953 because it concerns espionage, which is a political offense and because, you know, 553 00:51:39,953 --> 00:51:44,640 it's protected by press freedom, what he's done and all of these things. But even if, 554 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:49,352 for the sake of the argument, if we accept that this is a legitimate extradition 555 00:51:49,352 --> 00:51:56,108 proceeding, then if he's a flight risk, then yes, you can. You can secure his 556 00:51:56,108 --> 00:52:05,100 presence, but you have to use the least harmful means to do that. So, you cannot 557 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:10,456 take measures that are more restrictive than necessary. And so if you put him in 558 00:52:10,456 --> 00:52:14,548 house arrest, a guarded house arrest where he cannot leave because there's a guard in 559 00:52:14,548 --> 00:52:19,802 front of the door, that's sufficient, and it's even cheaper than a high security 560 00:52:19,802 --> 00:52:24,344 prison. And that's what they've done with with with Augusto Pinochet, who was, I 561 00:52:24,344 --> 00:52:28,800 remind you, not accused of journalism. He was accused of having, you know, being 562 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,633 responsible for murder and torture and disappearance of thousands of people as 563 00:52:32,633 --> 00:52:39,232 the dictator of ex-dictator of Chile. And the British, But he was an ally of the 564 00:52:39,232 --> 00:52:43,589 United Kingdom. So, but he was in the legal, legally accepted, (cough) excuse 565 00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:48,564 me, except that he was accused of serious crimes, and Julian Assange is not. He was 566 00:52:48,564 --> 00:52:54,174 in the same extradition kind of situation, and he was allowed to spend one and a half 567 00:52:54,174 --> 00:52:59,253 years in a luxurious villa where he was visited by, you know, ex-Prime Minister 568 00:52:59,253 --> 00:53:04,116 Thatcher. But Julian Assange has been put in a high security prison. That's, ... 569 00:53:04,116 --> 00:53:09,952 he's not a violent person. He's put in the toughest high security prison where, you 570 00:53:09,952 --> 00:53:15,547 know, violent criminals are being held. And so, that's actually that's absolutely 571 00:53:15,547 --> 00:53:20,870 not justifiable. He could be kept in anywhere else, you know where he can be 572 00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:25,752 supervised, and he has a human right to live his family life, to live his 573 00:53:25,752 --> 00:53:30,763 profession. There is, ... he's not serving a sentence. He's not convicted of 574 00:53:30,763 --> 00:53:37,650 anything. And his health is in the dire state. We have examined him two years ago 575 00:53:37,650 --> 00:53:44,166 and warned that he would enter a downward spiral very soon, and it actually 576 00:53:44,166 --> 00:53:51,320 happened. He was not even able to to to attend his, ... to observe his own appeals 577 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:58,035 hearing at the end of October. He actually had a stroke during that hearing. And it's 578 00:53:58,035 --> 00:54:03,844 absolutely grotesque that the judges in that hearing, you know, decided that his 579 00:54:03,844 --> 00:54:10,080 health was stable enough to be extradited to the US, based on some flimsy assurances 580 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:17,320 that don't guarantee anything. You know that don't protect him from anything. 581 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:23,734 Herald: Then this question fits right perfectly to that because it does. Are you 582 00:54:23,734 --> 00:54:27,914 confident that the US government won't harm Assange as they promised? 583 00:54:27,914 --> 00:54:34,335 Nils: To the contrary, I'm confident they will because there's no way he's going to 584 00:54:34,335 --> 00:54:40,366 get a fair trial. The public narrative against Assange is so overwhelming, and 585 00:54:40,366 --> 00:54:47,520 the prejudice is so overwhelming against him. He's going to be tried in Alexandria, 586 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:54,167 the infamous espionage court where I indicated before it's a secret trial. Very 587 00:54:54,167 --> 00:54:59,210 often, the defense does not even have access to the evidence against the 588 00:54:59,210 --> 00:55:05,650 suspect, and there is no press allowed. There is no trial observation allowed. You 589 00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:13,198 know, there is, ... the jury takes information from the prosecution that the 590 00:55:13,198 --> 00:55:19,068 defense doesn't have access to. No one has ever been acquitted in that court. It's a 591 00:55:19,068 --> 00:55:23,903 national security court. No one has ever been acquitted, and people are being 592 00:55:23,903 --> 00:55:29,631 threatened with enormous prison sentences there, unless they accept some kind of 593 00:55:29,631 --> 00:55:34,016 plea bargain. In his case, it would certainly mean that he would have to spend 594 00:55:34,016 --> 00:55:42,678 decades in prison. So, ... and for this type of suspect, it's always solitary 595 00:55:42,678 --> 00:55:47,640 confinement, which means near complete isolation. No contact with the outside 596 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:52,916 world, no contact to other inmates, no talking even to the guards. You know, very 597 00:55:52,916 --> 00:55:58,374 often the US authorities then say, Oh, we have to put him on suicide watch, you 598 00:55:58,374 --> 00:56:02,153 know, for his own benefit, which means they wake him up every 15 minutes at 599 00:56:02,153 --> 00:56:09,120 night. He cannot sit down or lie down during the day. And it's really a form of 600 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:15,059 torture. And I say this as an expert, and I'm not the only one saying this. It's my 601 00:56:15,059 --> 00:56:18,898 predecessors. That's, you know, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch. 602 00:56:18,898 --> 00:56:22,807 Everybody agrees these types of conditions are a violation of the Convention against 603 00:56:22,807 --> 00:56:29,711 Torture and Ill Treatment. Herald: Thank you for that answer. I have 604 00:56:29,711 --> 00:56:36,086 one last question, and that's probably the big one. What can society do, or what 605 00:56:36,086 --> 00:56:41,760 needs to happen, to stop the extradition from happening now? And what would need to 606 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,760 happen to undo the effects of the US government's approach in this case, like 607 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,880 the intimidation of journalists? Nils: Well, I guess, Stephanie, you will 608 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:56,240 have something to say about this as well. I mean, from my perspective. The US has to 609 00:56:56,240 --> 00:57:02,720 drop this case. They have to, or they have to be pressured by their own media and 610 00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:10,240 their own society to drop this case because, you know, the US society is 611 00:57:10,240 --> 00:57:15,280 really, ... is they have the political influence on their political leadership, 612 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:21,280 and it's in their own interest that they stop this from happening because otherwise 613 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:25,360 they will lose, as I said before, the right to know what their government is 614 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,680 doing, the fact already it lost that right, actually, they have to regain it. 615 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:36,320 And I think, so, civil society is very important, but the media, especially the 616 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:42,800 mainstream media, that they start picking this up is very, very important. Public 617 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:48,480 opinion has to turn around and not only in the US, in the UK, in Australia, in Sweden 618 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:55,440 and anywhere, anywhere. People have to ask their governments, Why are you accepting 619 00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,800 that a country that you are allied with, you know, is persecuting journalists, that 620 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:05,360 expose their war crimes? We have to ask the people, that are elected to 621 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,560 parliament, why they are, accepting this? Why they are keeping silent, you know 622 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:15,680 because, it will cost it will cost us very dearly. I don't know what you think, 623 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,320 Stefania. Stefania: Yes, I absolutely agree with 624 00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:24,240 you. We absolutely have to win this case, which means we absolutely have to put 625 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:30,400 pressure, take to the streets, must see press coverage of the situation. It's a 626 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,480 scandal that it took an Italian journalist to litigate a Freedom of Information case 627 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:42,560 in the UK and the US, Australia and Sweden because no one else did it. It's a scandal 628 00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:47,440 that you took an Italian journalist to try to discover the pressure from the Crown 629 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:54,640 Prosecution Service on the Swedish authorities and the attempt to bypass the 630 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:59,680 European Court of Human Rights. Can you believe that the Guardian was not able to 631 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:05,760 do this, or can you believe that the New York Times could not expose the CIA 632 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:12,960 attempts to kill him? I mean, it took Yahoo? I mean, can you believe Yahoo had 633 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:18,880 more sources inside the CIA than The Washington Post or the New York Times that 634 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:26,320 inside this agency? Can you believe that they were not able to expose before Yahoo 635 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:32,800 News? So, we absolutely have to call them out and to make, ... to have them on 636 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:37,840 board. They don't want to be on board. We have seen they don't cover the case 637 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:43,040 properly. They say they want to be factual, when in fact they have not looked 638 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:48,080 for the facts. And it took an Italian judicial system, a U.N. special 639 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:53,920 rapporteur, to investigate the case, which is unbelievable, you know. So, we have to 640 00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:59,840 have them on board, and we absolutely have to win this case. Having the case dropped, 641 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:05,040 the investigation dropped because it is a scandal. I mean, in 20 years of 642 01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:10,880 journalism, my experience of 20 years as a journalist, 15 in investigative 643 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:18,000 journalism, I have never heard of a media organization put under investigation for 644 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:24,160 11 years. I never heard this. I don't know. I don't believe it exists. Not even, 645 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:31,360 ... I mean, just in seriously authoritarian dictatorships. I never heard 646 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:36,080 of a media organization under investigation for 11 years as WikiLeaks, 647 01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:41,920 ... the WikiLeaks journalists have been. So, we absolutely have to win this case, 648 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:47,360 and we have not to rely on the legal process. The legal process is completely 649 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:54,000 corrupt, completely corrupt. So, we, it is up to us. It's up to us to take to the 650 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:59,280 street and to have press coverage or whatever press coverage we can, the 651 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:05,680 independent media, the citizen journalism for the whatever. We can to mobilize 652 01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:10,880 people to have people taking to the streets and realize this monstrous 653 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:18,400 injustice. In the preface to my book, Ken Loach, the great film director Ken Loach, 654 01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:24,080 calls it "this monstrous injustice". He's absolutely right. 655 01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:29,040 Nils: And if you allow me to just say one sentence here also, to conclude my own 656 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:33,680 statement, here is just to say, don't think that this is just the Assange case, 657 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:40,080 that is the tip of the iceberg. And I wrote the book about this, not because 658 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:45,360 this is the only case, but this is the case that makes it most visible what's 659 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:50,000 really going on? It's actually a keyhole through which you can see into a parallel 660 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,160 world that already exists, where democracy and the rule of law is being 661 01:01:54,160 --> 01:02:00,960 systematically undermined. So, don't believe those public narratives, in this 662 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,600 case or in others, you know. Ask questions, ask for evidence and always 663 01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,320 ask, you know, who has what kind of interests here? And are we still able to 664 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,760 know what the powerful are doing with the power and the money they have? And that's 665 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:22,080 really at the core of it. So, I hope this was useful, and clearly I invite people, 666 01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:26,960 you know, read, read, it's the Stefania's book. Read my book, read, read about the 667 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,520 case and make up your own mind, you know because it's about your rights and your 668 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:35,610 life. Stefania: Absolutely. Let me close this 669 01:02:35,610 --> 01:02:43,840 conversation with reminding people that we will keep this conversation going in the 670 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:51,196 "after three village" at 10 p.m. We will wait for you. We appreciate more questions 671 01:02:51,196 --> 01:02:57,475 about these important crucial case. Thank you. Herald: Yeah, thank you both very much for 672 01:02:57,475 --> 01:03:03,520 being here and for the very interesting talk, and maybe we see each other later in 673 01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:13,212 the "after three village" and yeah, have a good evening. 674 01:03:13,212 --> 01:03:16,505 *Music* 675 01:03:16,505 --> 01:03:25,525 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2022. Join, and help us!